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Channel Islands / Isle of Man / San Marino aircraft registry / register (merged)

There’s nothing wrong with the FAA / N-reg scene, it’s a good system and probably much better than EASA. I doubt that more N registered are based outside of the USA though.

That’s not what is being discussed and as I have said a registry validation is different from the examples given by Alioth and yourself.

I can only summarise that a registry validation seems to be only valid in the registry country where they issued it and if your aircraft is based in that country.. Outside of that country it’s a different story. Perhaps rather than applying to the registry for a validation it should be discontinued, with the rule that one obtains permission from country of aircraft and pilot residence, and such permission is then issued in documentation form by that country instead. Far simpler, more straightforward and no misunderstandings.

Spain

I can only summarise that a registry validation seems to be only valid in the registry country

That is completely wrong. That is not how the ICAO licensing system works. As a starting position, a license is valid everywhere (in an ICAO Contracting State) so long as it is issued by the same authority as the aircraft reg. Whether it is a validation or a conversion or a standalone license, doesn’t make any difference.

Many 3rd World countries need an overflight permit etc but that’s a different issue.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Why is it completely wrong ?

How is a registry validation valid outside of the registry country of issue if one doesn’t hold say an EASA licence in Europe for instance ? The answer is that it isn’t valid unless you comply with local CAA rules where aircraft and crew are based, something your fellow posters have agreed too. So in this case where is the value of having a registry validation ? There doesn’t seem to be one. Far easier approaching the local CAA where you are based in the first place, let them issue it instead.

You also referred to it as an ICAO licensing system, that is incorrect as we are talking about a validation, two completely separate things and yes it makes a big difference.

Spain

Hurricane wrote:

The other difference is that possibly less than 1% of aircraft on these registries have aircraft actually based in the country where the registry is. So you have a situation where a validation is issued via a non european licence in the knowledge that the aircraft is based in Europe, you think that’s acceptable do you ?

Yes, it’s entirely acceptable. The validation is merely saying “We saw an ICAO-compliant license applicable to this aircraft”. It’s always up to the PIC to know whether they still comply with the rules wherever they are choosing to base the aircraft. That’s part of what being PIC means, it means you can be trusted to understand the local regulations regardless of where your pilots license is issued. It’s also not about where the aircraft is based but where the operator is based, when it comes to the EASA “screw N-reg” rules.

Last Edited by alioth at 23 May 09:05
Andreas IOM

Fantastic ! Thanks for confirming the lack of value of the validation, they saw a compliant licence applicable to this aircraft, that’s just overwhelming and incredible, what a document ! Contacting your local aviation authority where aircraft and crew are based is the best advice, get the correct permissions from them, although this procedure isn’t specified within any application for a registry validation.

Operator location, what a joke, heard all of that before and it doesn’t save a pilot from requiring EASA papers if aircraft and pilot are based in the EU.

Spain

The validation has value – you cannot fly the M-reg plane legally anywhere without it.

It’s silly to suggest a validating authority has to check with local regulations absolutely everywhere an operator might base the plane when this is clearly the responsibility (and always has been, regardless of the registration painted on the aft fuselage) of the PIC.

Also I think you’re mistaken about FAA validations – yes they send you a plastic card, but it’s only valid if the license it’s based on is also valid. It’s not a standalone license. For example, an Australian PPL who lives in Europe could get an FAA 61.75 validation and the plastic card, but that still wouldn’t allow them to fly an N registered plane in Europe.

Last Edited by alioth at 23 May 11:34
Andreas IOM

it doesn’t save a pilot from requiring EASA papers if aircraft and pilot are based in the EU.

No $hit Sherlock

This is just going round and round in circles. Are you a pilot / do you actually fly something somewhere, Hurricane?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Alioth, FAA 61.75 does allow you to fly N registered plane in Europe, and also registries have and continue to accept 61.75 FAA issued plastic card certificates. You are correct though that the existing licence it is based on also needs to be valid, Australian or whatever. 61.75 issued is still actually a certificate or licence in its own right, not classified as a validation.

Dictionary meaning of validation – the action of making or declaring something legally acceptable.

Possible meaning of validation my some registries – we saw your ICAO licence

Some maths, example of 800 aircraft on a registry. Registry charges £200 for validation, average 3 crew per op = £480,000 total every 3 years for seeing someone’s ICAO licence and issuing a document which carries that much weight.

Spain

Hurricane wrote:

Alioth, FAA 61.75 does allow you to fly N registered plane in Europe

Only under the same conditions as the Manx validation allowing you to fly an M reg in Europe. With the N reg and 61.75, if the operator is based in Europe, you still need an EASA license and all the applicable EASA type ratings, just as you would if you had a validation for an M reg airframe.

Andreas IOM

I agree with you Alioth, that’s also my understanding. Further, nowadays even if the operator is based outside of Europe and aircraft and crew based in Europe then the EASA type ratings and licence also apply.

Spain
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