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Ditching accidents, life rafts, jackets and equipment, training and related discussion

Fuji_Abound wrote:

The water alone in my 8 man raft weighs more than a couple of aviation rafts.

I know this should rather go in the life raft thread, but I’ll leave it here since it’s a reply to a post from here.

Why would you carry many kgs of real water in a raft and not a desalination device like this?

LeSving wrote:

The raft often gets upside down in the water, and we trained to get it right again. With a big raft that is some serious business and requires teamwork (I seriously doubt you can do it without training the proper techniques). Also getting into it is much easier when you are more than one person.

Fortunately righting a small raft (say for six people) is quite easy. Well, it depends on the raft. But the size itself is manageable even when alone.

what_next wrote:

I guess this is what navy seal training is about…

I imagine those go for the real deal. I was talking about civilian facilities and courses. But I get your point and you’re right. And it’s why I have a nice suit with gloves and everything. It’s a necessity in cold water. I think you want to start with calm and warm water. But such facility allows you to realistically increase difficulty and to test the raft itself. Cold is perhaps for the last exercise when you have the technique down (as you can’t stay in there for too long) just to experience the effect.

Of course, if you’re lucky enough to still have a wing to inflate it on, it would be stupid to get yourself wet when you don’t have to – that’s not something that would improve your chances of survival.

If you want to read about extreme survival read this book, I can guarantee that you wont be able to put it down…

You can find a s/h copy on abebooks.com

JasonC wrote:

I have just bought the Winslow ULO6 raft. Good features, small packaging and fairly light.

That looks like a great choice, Jason! Ticks all the boxes. If I was in the market for a life raft, that’s what I would buy.

You might want to check getwet.nl

Thank you Martin. This looks like a better option than the one I found. Especially the training in the North Sea looks very tempting.

jkv
EHEH

atmilatos wrote:

I’ve done the Helo Dunker course, which is the beginning of the water survival topic. It was done by the Hellenic Navy. Since we have a lot of water in Greece I found it very interesting. We were taught what to do in order to egress the aircraft, what to look for, how to put our hands etc and then we did all that in a helicopter mock airframe (sitting in the cockpit) while it was submerged normally, upside down, day and night, in different scenarios, eg egress from your side, the other side or the cabin. Then we did a mock helicopter rescue, life vest underwater demos etc. What I also learned is that if you do certain things a ditching is survivable. I think everybody should take it, GA passengers too. Also it would be nice to retake it every 2 years or so, but they are a bit pricey.

I too did this course at Hellenic Navy few years ago.
I found the scenario of a slow capsizing helicopter in calm warm pool water not realistic.
I’d rather prefer if they had it done with the mock cabin “crashing” in cold water and capsizing quickly.
The main thing that I kept from that course in my opinion is how to conserve energy while in the water, the post crash (ditch) survival part.
The cockpit egress part I found it useless since each (real) scenario will be different.
It was certainly a useful experience.

LGMG Megara, Greece

petakas wrote:

The cockpit egress part I found it useless since each (real) scenario will be different.

I think that depends on the course. We used several hours, different seating, different exit. One hand on the back to simulate a broken arm, blindfolded etc. The basic principles are the same no matter the aircraft. I think the most important thing is that after the course, you know (100% certainty) that you will survive a real event. If that is not the case, then the course isn’t worth it. Maybe that AOPA course also is more tailor made towards GA ?

But then again, I can’t help thinking that regarding actual and real survivability, the suit is 80%, the course is 20.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

petakas wrote:

The cockpit egress part I found it useless since each (real) scenario will be different.

The lesson you should take away from that part is the technique and objective – to find yourself reference points to be able to orient yourself no matter which way the cabin is turned without being able to see and off course being able to operate whatever is necessary. It would obviously be best to do this in the same cabin you fly in but that’s not practical. In the later exercises they should position the cabin randomly so you don’t know which way is up and have to use the proper technique. It’s up to you to apply it to your cabin.

LeSving wrote:

I think the most important thing is that after the course, you know (100% certainty) that you will survive a real event. If that is not the case, then the course isn’t worth it. Maybe that AOPA course also is more tailor made towards GA ?

But then again, I can’t help thinking that regarding actual and real survivability, the suit is 80%, the course is 20.

According to statistics, even untrained people manage to survive the ditching and get out (survivability is something like 95 % IIRC). Hard part is surviving after getting out and at that point it doesn’t really matter how you got there (ship or plane). It’s not a coincidence these dunkers are typically aimed at helicopter crews and passengers. Nor is it a coincidence helicopter crews carry more often oxygen to buy more time to egress. Helicopters are less stable and can more easily roll over. This part doesn’t hurt but IMHO it’s not the most important bit for aeroplane crews.

If we’re talking about North Sea or North Atlantic or any other body of cold water, suit is essential, no doubt about it. You could die just from the shock after immersion.

jkv wrote:

Thank you Martin. This looks like a better option than the one I found. Especially the training in the North Sea looks very tempting.

Or the indoor training. I believe they have access to the Falck facility near Rotterdam (wave pool and the works). That’s why I remember them. You’re welcome. PS: So you might want to check Falck’s offering as well.

Last Edited by Martin at 25 Aug 10:40

According to the RNLI, the average person can hold their breath for 45 seconds in calm conditions. This drops to 10 seconds in an unplanned immersion.

Forever learning
EGTB
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