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N-reg requires an *FAA* IR for any IMC, worldwide?

here

How does this relate to FAR $61.3 (a) (1) ?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

That’s a good question.

As a first reaction, I would say he is wrong with that very general statement.

OTOH, one would think he knows his stuff, down to the very last detail…

In any case, I don’t like the style of that “did you know” section. Too little text and too many bolds/exclamation marks.

Last Edited by boscomantico at 17 Aug 10:51
Frankfurt (EDFZ, EDFE), Germany

On a quick reading I don’t think it is correct. 61.3(a)(1) allows a foreign certificate when operating a US civil aircraft in the country which issued the licence.

61.3(e) says that if operating a civil aircraft (doesn’t state what registry) in IMC needs IR on certificate. This would apply to any aircraft in the US or US reg aircraft outside. So I think if operating US reg aircraft in the UK, a European IR on a UK issued certificate would be legal. This would not apply to an IMC rating as that isn’t an ICAO IR.

EGTK Oxford

I agree with you Jason, except that (and this is off topic now) I have it in writing from the FAA that the IMCR is OK for an N-reg.

Another key point is “a European IR on a UK issued certificate”. To comply with 61.3, the IR has to be on the same License which you are flying on, and both have to be issued by the owner of the airspace you are flying in.

So, IMHO, a UK issued IR and a German issued PPL would be no good for an N-reg, for IFR, anywhere. Whether that is actually possible is another matter… the UK IR had to be applied to a UK PPL/CPL at some stage, and this scenario would require the UK PPL to become invalid while the German PPL remains valid. I can see this happening due to a void UK medical for example.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter,

This is of interest, since I’m currently plodding through my EASA IR(R), and some years ago I think you wrote:
-——————-
Postby peterh337 ยป Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:54 am
I have it in writing from both the CAA and the FAA that the IMC Rating is good for an N-reg.

Obviously, within the limitations imposed in the ANO i.e. IFR in the UK only, etc.
-——————-

Any chance of digging those letters/emails out and Thanks for publishing them here-?-!

Peter.

Last Edited by Jacko at 17 Aug 11:25
Glenswinton, SW Scotland, United Kingdom

For me this is purely academic, but I am curious…

@JasonC – where do you interpret the need for an ICAO IR being required for flight in IFR conditions?

FARs:

  • 61.3.(a).1.(v) When operating an aircraft within a foreign country, a pilot license issued by that country may be used.
  • 61.3.(e).1.(1)The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person’s pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;

My interpretation is this:
If you are operating on your UK-issued EASA licence, with an IR(R) (formerly the IMC rating), I believe you have met all the required criteria for IFR flight in the UK. As the IR(R) is not valid outside UK airspace, you may not use this privilege in other EASA states.

I think it’s quite clear. What have I missed?

EGTT, The London FIR

It is not clear cut I agree but the US in its guidance on issuing instrument ratings onto 61.75s says:

(4) The British CAA may issue an instrument
meteorological conditions (IMC) rating. Holders of the
British IMC privilege are not qualified to receive a U.S.
instrument rating for the following reasons:
(a) The IMC privilege is not as high a level
of qualification as the instrument rating and confers no
privileges for flights requiring compliance with IFR.
(b) IMC privileges can be used only within
the U.K. Therefore, a holder of the IMC privilege is not
eligible to take the IFP knowledge test or be issued a
U.S. instrument rating.

As a result I do not think the FAA would recognise it as an instrument rating for the purposes of the other provisions re flying US reg aircraft in the UK.

EGTK Oxford

As you say, this is only pertaining to the issuance of an FAA IR. It has nothing to say about operating in a foreign state on the basis of a licence issued by that state.

JasonC wrote:

(b) IMC privileges can be used only within the U.K.

This confirms that the FAA acknowledges that a UK issued IMC, now IR(R), is valid for use in the UK.

JasonC wrote:

As a result I do not think the FAA would recognise it as an instrument rating for the purposes of the other provisions re flying US reg aircraft in the UK.

I suggest that 61.3.(a).1.(v) is comprehensive in its statement of requirements and therefore takes precedence as you would be operating entirely on the basis of the UK-issued licence and in full compliance with the conditions of that licence. One does not currently require an FAA licence to fly an N-reg in the UK, therefore it would be pointless to require an FAA IR when the pilot is not required to possess an FAA licence.

EGTT, The London FIR

As you say, this is only pertaining to the issuance of an FAA IR. It has nothing to say about operating in a foreign state on the basis of a licence issued by that state.

I think it is more subtle than that. The FAA requires an instrument rating to fly an N-reg in the UK in IMC. It isn’t clear to me that an IMC satisfies that. The fact that the UK allows IMC flight with an IMC rating is not necessarily relevant. What if the UK allowed IMC flight with no additional rating? Would it still be OK in FAA terms?

But I am not an expert on this stuff and right now am trying to get the hang of V1 cuts so I will leave it to those more qualified to opine.

EGTK Oxford

JasonC wrote:

What if the UK allowed IMC flight with no additional rating? Would it still be OK in FAA terms?

Yes, I believe it would, provided you were operating on the basis of a UK licence. An FAA licence is not required.

It is often tempting to read things into legislation and regulations that aren’t really there. I don’t have any prior experience of the FARs so all I have to work with are the regulations themselves. All I have done is take it back to the statements made in the FAR. Each section is self-contained but all applicable requirements must be met – for example, medical.

To break it all down, according to FAR 61.3…

Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorisations.

(a) Required pilot certificate for operating a civil aircraft of the United States. No person may serve as a required pilot flight crewmember of a civil aircraft of the United States, unless that person: (emphasis is mine)

(a).(1).(v) [Licence] – When operating an aircraft within a foreign country, a pilot license issued by that country may be used.
(a).(2).(iv) [ID] Official passport or (vi) Other form of identification that the Administrator finds acceptable.

(b) – Not applicable

(c) [Medical]
(c).(2).(x) – Is operating an aircraft within a foreign country using a pilot license issued by that country and possesses evidence of current medical qualification for that license; or

(d) – Not applicable

(e) [Instrument Rating]
(e).(1) – The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person’s pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown; [met by 61.3.(a).(1).(v) above, one is not required to possess an FAA licence]

(f) – Not applicable
(g) – Not applicable
(h) – Not applicable
(i) – Not applicable
(j) – Not applicable for private GA
(k) – Not applicable
(l) – Relates to providing the above documentation for inspection when required by an authorised person

It does not say anywhere in FAR 61.3 that provisions of other FARs are also required in order for anything contained in 61.3 to be valid.

I am not an expert either, but I do a lot of contract work in the course of my professional career. My interpretations above are worth exactly what you paid for them.

EGTT, The London FIR
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