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Brexit and general aviation, UK leaving EASA, etc (merged)

Ibra wrote:

There is the sovereignty argument: CAA can issue licences for flying G-aircraft in G-space…a bit like the “Brevet De Base” I used to hold a while ago in France which was issued by DGAC but relies on aeroclub instructors assessment of risk

Not sure. I believe the EASA basis for the BB is Part-FCL article 4, paragraph 7:
7. A Member State may authorise a student pilot to exercise limited privileges without supervision before he/she meets all the requirements necessary for the issuance of an LAPL under the following conditions:
(a) the privileges shall be limited to its national territory or a part of it;
(b) the privileges shall be restricted to a limited geographical area and to single-engine piston aeroplanes with a maximum take-off mass not exceeding 2 000 kg, and shall not include the carriage of passengers;
(c) those authorisations shall be issued on the basis of an individual safety risk assessment carried out by an instructor following a concept safety risk assessment carried out by the Member State;
(d) the Member State shall submit periodical reports to the Commission and the Agency every 3 years.

Ibra wrote:

There is no legal basis for the NPPL but there is a pragamtic one: proportionate risk-based regulation from CAA that enhance GA prosperity without forcing other NAAs to accept it or compromise safety

Maybe the basis for the NPPL is the same as above…

Peter wrote:

although France ran its own national IR very recently, which didn’t need ELP so (without ELP) was usable only within France – what happened to that?

The legal basis for the FN-IR is Part-FCL article 4, paragraph 8
8. Until 8 April 2019, a Member State may issue an authorisation to a pilot to exercise specified limited privileges to fly aeroplanes under instrument flight rules before the pilot complies with all of the requirements necessary for the issue of an instrument rating in accordance with this Regulation, subject to the following conditions:

Last Edited by Aviathor at 23 Mar 17:26
LFPT, LFPN

Aviathor wrote:

Not sure. I believe the EASA basis for the BB is Part-FCL article 4, paragraph 7:

On my old BB did more than that I used to have extensions that allow passengers, < 100km Nav and night flying…
Later, I grandfathered a LAPL from DGAC then upgraded to EASA PPL (+NPPL SLMG) from UK CAA after but that night rating was lost lost in translation :)

Safety-wise, I don’t think flying on legacy licences (e.g. BB + extensions, NPPL…) does expose pilot or passengers to too much risk in a club environment with instructors + their cheap entry cost open GA to more people (good or bad, who knows?)

However, you will always find lawyers to argue that those legacy national licences are not be adequate for “flying from own airstrip” or non-compliance with basic EU rules…still on the ground a reckless pilot can kill himself and he does need an (EASA) aircraft/licence to do that !

Back to the post, while I completely disagree with Brexit ideology, I still think UK aviation rules should come from ground experience not from distant Brussels…none of this is an issue as long as the “equivalence” between national system and EASA is considered a to be sufficient as mean of compliance.

I think current overall Brexit trend and shape is going that way, not just for aviation…

Last Edited by Ibra at 23 Mar 21:25
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

I still think UK aviation rules should come from ground experience not from distant Brussels

Sure, but that is totally against the idea of the European “Union” i.e. standardisation.

The bottom line is that the UK could just walk away and even though this is very unlikely it is the bottom line (i.e. the worst case scenario for both sides) which keeps negotiations going and is likely to lead to some halfway point. For example it is dead certain that the UK will keep the IMCR / IR(R) even though Brussels demands this is wiped out in 2019. I am sure it will retain the NPPL too. Currently it is good only for the UK, and for France if you have the Class 2 medical, and that is well within the “politics is the art of the possible” department, along with Spanish bullfighting, etc, etc.

It’s going to be interesting but the UK is IMHO sure to remain in EASA, for so many reasons.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Ibra wrote:

I still think UK aviation rules should come from ground experience not from distant Brussels

So back to the system where every country invents its own rules? Obviously the EASA harmonization is not perfect, but it lightyears better than the situation was in the 80’s. I flew both IFR and VFR all over Europe at that time and you had to spend an unreasonable amount of time learning the local variations.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

However, the existence of the NPPL and the IMCR in the UK doesn’t affect anybody outside the UK. It is a purely additional privilege to UK pilots. The others can be jealous but they suffer no negative impact. And it isn’t like the argument for a level playing field which you understandably have in free trade. There is no negative effect on anyone else. The argument to block local privileges is 100% ideological.

All you need is a common set of rules and these have been the same (practically speaking) since I started flying around in 2001. EASA never did anything about

  • airspace
  • VFR charts (that aspect has been sidestepped by VFR pilots using the tablet products)
  • radio/ATC practices
  • ATC ELP
  • airport exploitative behaviour
  • accuracy of AIPs
  • customs/immigration

etc… all the things which affect flying around.

And IFR has been the same all over Europe for many years and has not really changed except for some RNAV SIDs and STARs and LPVs.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Yes completly agree with Peter,

Airborn again, you don’t have to learn about local variations if there is a core set of EU rules and equivalence in each national system, that is all what you need…

Asking to have one template that fits all countries is a bit of stretch and may kill most of the benefit behind the EU idea, especially when standards are driven by politics/ideology rather than pragmatic/safety

Take caravans: there is a big difference between requiring an adapter for 13 pins to drive cross EU versus you can’t have caravans with 12 pins in France

Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Ibra wrote:

Airborn again, you don’t have to learn about local variations if there is a core set of EU rules and equivalence in each national system, that is all what you need…

That is not what you implied when you wrote

I still think UK aviation rules should come from ground experience not from distant Brussels

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

As always you have to put it in the whole post context otherwise it seems comming from our Nigel ;)

I guess in the near we will be surprised how much you can out-in/opt-out in the rules, UK can have the benefits of both in and out of EASA but that comes with a big contribution to the budgets..

Last Edited by Ibra at 24 Mar 18:02
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

This threatening letter from Brussels has just popped up.

Nothing too surprising in there. It describes the “UK in the wilderness” position, much wished for by many on the mainland, if nothing is agreed and the UK leaves EASA.

I also read an interesting snippet today: EASA membership is open to what the EU calls “third countries” i.e. non EU members. So it is not clear why the UK should (or indeed could) be forced to leave EASA.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

These are no threats but merely a reminder to the stakeholders as to what they will need to comply with in the absence of an agreement. It is called “being prepared”, also known as “anticipation”.

I am however a little surprised by the paragraph saying that licenses delivered by the CAA will no longer be valid… That must be a little exaggerated. They may no longer be valid on other than G-reg aircraft, but they will certainly be valid in G-reg if the CAA so chooses.

LFPT, LFPN
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