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Brexit and general aviation, UK leaving EASA? (merged)

These are no threats but merely a reminder to the stakeholders as to what they will need to comply with in the absence of an agreement. It is called “being prepared”, also known as “anticipation”.

I am however a little surprised by the paragraph saying that licenses delivered by the CAA will no longer be valid… That must be a little exaggerated. They may no longer be valid on other than G-reg aircraft, but they will certainly be valid in G-reg if the CAA so chooses.

LFPT, LFPN

Peter wrote:

It describes the “UK in the wilderness” position, much wished for by many on the mainland, if nothing is agreed and the UK leaves EASA.

It was clear since the vote that the rump-EU will wage a (so far economic) war of secession against the UK, trying very hard to drive the message home that whoever leaves the promised land will end in eternal hell and damnation. It is part of the “negotiations” if they can be called thus to position the EU as the great power who now will have all the possibilities to hassle the UK as much as they can. It is very clear that the EU will make a brutal example of the UK “pour encourager les autres” who might also be eyeing a break with Brussels.

EASA membership is indeed open to third countries as is Switzerland for a start. The actual relation between the EU and Switzerland is based on a set of bilateral contracts one of which concerns aviation and includes membership in EASA, albeit without voting rights. The question is, if that is acceptable to the UK powers that are. I reckon it won’t, at least not if the UK is not allowed to keep their particularities such as IMCR, NPPL e.t.c.

In the long run, I do not think that the UK will WANT to leave EASA but may be forced to unless they accept the absolutely horrific financial and other burdens put onto it by the EU. And I guess any government trying to do that will collapse. So quite possibly it won’t be the UK leaving EASA but it will be the EU who will expulse the UK out of any and all European treaties which are beneficial to it.

Of course the UK has possibilities to retaliate, such as regarding overflight rights for the daily NATL traffic e.t.c. Where at total closure of UK airspace for overflight to EU carriers may well provoke a rather quick (and harsh) reaction by the airlines. We must not forget that in this situation, it is not the rational which prevails, which would certainly allow the UK to stay in EASA, but it is a situation wherein the Rump-EU has to demonstrate it to other dissidents that leaving means full economical war with those who stay in. It may even go beyond that if things get really pear-shaped, e.g. the EU trying to stage a blockade of the UK by sea and air to hunger them out, which almost certainly would lead to a larger conflict drawing in the US and other possible blocade runners.

Interesting times ahead me thinks…..

LSZH, Switzerland

This does not look to me as if it would only be applicable if the UK leaves EASA from the wording :

Such certificates issued by EASA to persons and organisations located in the United Kingdom will therefore no longer be valid in the EU as of the withdrawal date. The products, parts and appliances concerned will no longer be considered as certified in accordance with Article 5 of the Basic Regulation.

As a G-REG owner living in the EU I am obviously not rejoicing, though it would be logical. Can’t have that cake and eat it…

LFHN - Bellegarde - Vouvray France

I don’t see what is “threatening” in that letter. It just explains the legal position should there be a “hard brexit”. The UK membership in EASA is contingent on its membership in the EU. As a non-EU member the UK would need an agreement to remain in EASA — it would not be automatic.

Apparently some people think that if the EU does not immediately agree to all UK proposals concerning future treaties with the EU, then the UK is being “punished”. Frankly that is nonsense. It takes two to tango.

Like most people here (I believe), I would like to see the UK stay in EASA. Indeed, I would have liked the UK to remain in the EU or at least leave for better reasons.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Airborne_Again wrote:

Apparently some people think that if the EU does not immediately agree to all UK proposals concerning future treaties with the EU, then the UK is being “punished”. Frankly that is nonsense. It takes two to tango.

Indeed it does and it also appears that some people think that the UK has to follow every proposal by the EU to gain it’s freedom which is equally proposterous. It takes two to tango as you rightly say and they will have to figure out a separation agreement or both face the consequences. My personal bet is there will be a hard brexit without contract unless the EU backs down on the tremendous reparation payments they are asking the UK to pay and which they darn well know they can’t.

As for the punishing part: Show me one instance where a secession like that went without a massive war. The only one I can think of was Checkoslovakia which separated amicably. While I don’t think there will be a shooting war in this secession, an economical one is already a fact even if quite some people don’t understand that yet.

EASA membership is not the only carrot stick in this thing, even though letting the UK stay in EASA (without voting rights as other 3rd party countries) may well be in the EU’s favour more than the UK’s, at it would give the EU considerable leverage to exercise on how the UK airspace industry can work. By expelling them or by not forging a contract detailing their relations before the Brexit date, they would end up with nothing but ICAO rules to guide their relations. They certainly can make life VERY difficult for each others airlines and operators (no more Uk operators flying within the EU, just to/from for starters and vice versa, no more mutual reckognition of licenses, no more mutual reckognition of airworthiness certificates e.t.c.)

But seeing how some of the smaller non-EASA entities in Europe have made money out of that fact as a flag of convenience country, it may also have possibilities.

LSZH, Switzerland

I am however a little surprised by the paragraph saying that licenses delivered by the CAA will no longer be valid… That must be a little exaggerated. They may no longer be valid on other than G-reg aircraft, but they will certainly be valid in G-reg if the CAA so chooses.

Yes; they will remain ICAO licenses and ratings and will be valid for a G-reg worldwide. Also for an N-reg subject to FAR 61.3 etc as usual.

It will thus have no effect on most UK pilots.

The other side of this is that N-reg pilots based in the UK will no longer be “based in or operating out of the Community” and will thus no longer be subject to the EASA FCL requirement for dual papers, which would be a hugely positive development. In reality we will probably end up with some mixture of all this.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Mooney_Driver wrote:

Show me one instance where a secession like that went without a massive war.

Norway’s secession from the union with Sweden in 1905?

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

CAA statement here

which is about right.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

It looks like the game is over. How can the U.K. possibly keep up the ban on FAA / third country rated pilots from March 2019 when the UK becomes a third country itself. The requirement for FAA rated pilots to also hold EASA licences or expensive medicals is looking to be meaningless from that point on. Ironically it’s also looking like UK EASA pilot licences will no longer be valid and will be worthless as pointed out below.

https://www.easa.europa.eu/brexit-negotiations
Link includes the following, which includes EASA pilot licences,

Certificates issued before the withdrawal date by the competent authorities of the United Kingdom on the basis of the provisions of the Basic Regulation and its implementing rules will no longer be valid as of the withdrawal date in the EU.

Spain

The UK has already “banned” own national licences already before third country FAA and other…

Regarding compliance with EASA, I think that will continue irrespective of Brexit outcomes

On the brexit day, the standrds are the same (the channel is not getting wider), so you have “equivalence” as long as the UK-EU agree on how to resolve any “divergence” from the rules (aviation only scope for ECJ?)

The reste of what you hear is just political noise and card playing, as both EU-UK agree to do buisness, the key thing to see is does UK-EU agree on a “resolve mechanism” for aviation sector?

EGTR, EGSX, United Kingdom
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