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SR20 N4252G down after two failed landing attempts...

I think the real question here is does ATC have any responsibility to assess whether or not the pilot is coping?

On the one hand, it might be argued that ATC is entitled to assume every pilot has met a minimium standard and therefore should be able to cope. On the other hand, probably every pilot is capable of finding themselves in a situation in which they are unable to cope.

Of course it may not always be possible to tell whether or not a pilot is coping by the conversation and the tone – but I think in many (possibly most) conversations it is possible to tell. Whether ATC has specific training for this I do not know.

Whether or not it is ATC’s repsonsibility, it seems to me the only human thing to do at the first sign that the pilot may not be coping is to unwind the pressure on the pilot – it must be truly horrible to think that your lack of actions may have contributed to a potentially avoidable accident.

ATC doesn’t have to sequence the slow mover to the approach in situations like that, just put it to orbit abeam somewhere (eg rwy 04 numbers), stick to a runway and a plan, ask approach for more separation for a couple of airliners and that’s all. The ATCO must put himself in the cockpit sometimes, ie if things seem complicated to him then they are twice that for a pilot. And these were complicated instructions.
The pilot could have reset the situation but the analysis points to some possible reasons not to.

LGMT (Mytilene, Lesvos, Greece), Greece

Is it reasonable to expect a controller, when very busy, to assess a pilot’s stress level?
Would the controller be aware the pilot was not local?
Might the controller be expecting a much tighter than standard approach?

Maoraigh
EGPE, United Kingdom

How about switching to plain english for RT communications when under stress, I found it make things easier on the pilot side but I am not sure if all controllers likes to accomodate it?

Experience may vary: some do and some go ballestic about it, the hold same for “standby”…but no hard feelings after all the RT is the last of pilot worries?

It is not good to put the blame on ATC neither, he is not flying that aircraft, he was making the life of the pilot harder but still he is not flying it…

Last Edited by Ibra at 03 Dec 20:13
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

My very first instinct when listening to this, some time ago, was that the Controller should have very easily heard that the Pilot wasn’t coping well.
IMO if he couldn’t, he needs more training.
Given that a Hobby pilot in stressful circumstances can be in real danger, where a pro should be less so, there were two options.
A) Get her on the ground asap (priority)
B) Politely divert her

Saving inconvenience to CAT (yes I know it’s their job) has had a considerable input to the outcome.
I understand everything related to poor airmanship and the narrower envelope of the aircraft etc

United Kingdom

GA_Pete wrote:

the Controller should have very easily heard that the Pilot wasn’t coping well.

I think she was coping just fine. She was a bit confused about the downwind heading to the new runway, and that didn’t help when the controller instructed her wrongly to turn to heading 030, instead of heading 180 which was what he actually meant. They also instructed her to climb to 1600 feet, why? immediately after she was cleared to land, but that didn’t work because she was too high.

When you come into a new (to you) airport you should expect the ATC is able to guide you to a safe landing, without they messing it up. Still, that the mess led her to continuously deteriorate her flying (slower speed at each go around) is only an assumption, but probably a correct one? I don’t know. They have been flying for some time, maybe she, or a passenger, badly needed to go to the bathroom, and that was the main cause of her distraction?

Last Edited by LeSving at 04 Dec 08:44
The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

I don’t disagree that the primary issue is pilot loss of control.
I have had two instances where I was able to instigate ‘Aviate Navigate Communicate’ to help prevent something serious occuring.
Once needing to assume control (having it handed to me instantly) in inadvertent IMC close to darkness and close to controlled airspace. I had no IMC time either………
The second was smoke in the cockpit.

If she was able to fundamentally achieve this, the outcome may have been very different.

Perhaps this needs to factor more in training.
As Pilots I think we all aspire to perform well, and some if not all of us can sometimes be distracted from one task while trying to ‘perform well’ at another.

RT at Full ATC for example.
What I mean in this instance (roughly speaking)
Very poor: I’m here, there’s tarmac, I’m landing.
Very good: Perfect RT and fully compliant with all vectoring and instructions.
There are a million variables in between.
She was overwhelmed but still trying to please ATC and ‘perform well’ at that task, perhaps.

United Kingdom

Thanks to I assume Peter for tagging my Dec 2 post onto this existing thread.
I didn’t like ATC on this one either. It would have rattled me a bit.
Changing runway not once but twice – or was it three times.
And that 35 relatively high x-wind rwy.
Not to mention that head 030 nonsense.
Still, I can see all view points here, but at the end of the day there was a loss of control in VMC.
I think she was trying to stay calm and sound professional, but I’m sure there was a build up of anxiety / frustration.
As mentioned there could have been a personal need from somebody onboard the aircraft to ‘get it the ground’.
Maybe even the pilot herself.
The urgent need for a ‘pee’ is one sure way of becoming totally distracted – ever had it happen on a motorway with the next junction xx miles away.

How many carry some rudimentary relief ‘kit’ in the aircraft (bottle, chemical pouch or whatever). Suitable male / female.
Could be an interesting and worthwhile discussion.
For long trips I would favour a ‘plumbed-in down the trouser leg system’.
What is there on the market apart from the difficult to use ‘bottle’ ?
Time for a new thread ?!

Last Edited by WarleyAir at 05 Dec 00:33
Regret no current medical
Was Sandtoft EGCF, North England, United Kingdom

Various previous threads on ways to pee in a plane

Yes it is very possible that somebody on board was desperate for the loo. It happens much more frequently than most will admit or report. And it is unpredictable; keeping flights to say 2hrs max (as many do, reportedly for this reason) is not a reliable solution.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

https://www.asmc.com/Camping/Accessories/Care/Hygiene/Urine-Bag-Wee-Jon-p.html

Have carried one of these for years,
Hope to not need it though. I’m quite tolerant to long journeys most of the time. It’s others I have to consider more. Never a guarantee it wont be me though.

United Kingdom
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