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D-ESPJ TB20 crash near Annecy, France, 25/11/2016

Teal wrote:

Having just read the entire thread, it is impressive how much information has been collectively researched and put together.

Bear in mind that many of the original postings regarding terrain depicting moving maps were relocated to a new thread- presumably to keep this thread somehow focused..,

EGPD / OMDW / YPJT, United Kingdom

JasonC wrote:

It actually doesn’t to me because it is prefaced with TA. I may have wondered if it was really a transition altitude as I agree that is odd to have on the chart but wouldnt have taken it as a grid MSA.
Easy to say while sitting on the ground, but a different story if they had to improvise it in the air. The may have missed the “TA”. I can think it’s easy to miss these 2 letters in the stressful situation of getting stuck in turbulent IMC over terrain.
When I was in SouthAfrica I had planned a position report while flying directly east of a large dam, which was the only remarkable feature in that area. The name was long and unfamiliar, the font very small, the blue font had poor contrast over the white map background, with just the little choppiness in the air I was not able to read the dam’s name, despite having used it on the way to two days before.
It was quiet on the frequency, I assumed there was nobody around, I just skipped that position report. Luxurious situation.

Last Edited by Arne at 06 Dec 01:29
ESMK, Sweden

Arne wrote:

Easy to say while sitting on the ground, but a different story if they had to improvise it in the air. The may have missed the “TA”. I can think it’s easy to miss these 2 letters in the stressful situation of getting stuck in turbulent IMC over terrain.

Not entirely sure what you are getting at. However it was asserted that it looks awfully like a Grid MSA. I don’t think it does. Presumably by your post you disagree.

Of course anything can be misread in flight under stress. Hence the importance of pre flight planning to avoid having to make a snap decision on the MSA.

EGTK Oxford

There can be no radio contact with ATC when flying in the valley near Albertville or anywhere near that place at 6500 feet. I know from flying there regularly. Also, the mountain instructor lets you fly to Albertville to deliver you the site permit after you arrive there. The site license you receive (I have one) is for life. It is not a difficult airfield to land. Most of the traffic through the valleys there is at 7000 feet and on the right side of the valley. The altitude can be a bit lower due to clouds above.

How about a possible MSA setting configured in a Garmin 430 or similar box? I have MSA set to show on my Garmin device. What altitude would it show?

He was flying straight towards the visual reporting point at the lake of Annecy and for sure would have cancelled IFR there. ATC would have asked him to tell them when ready to cancel IFR. Based on the direction in which he was flying I would think that he was trying to stay visual and fly through the valleys to Albertville. That did at some point not work out and thus he decided to divert.

That is my take on it. It would help if the ATC recordings were available.

Last Edited by AeroPlus at 06 Dec 04:33
EDLE, Netherlands

File Number BEA2016-0740 Accident, Jarsy, on 25 November 2016, SOCATA – TB20, D-ESPJ
Accident to the Socata TB20 registered D-ESPJ on 25/11/2016 at Jarsy
Investigation in progress  
Summary
Vol IFR AD Dortmund (Allemagne) – AD Albertville (73) :
En vol, le pilote clôture le plan de vol pour passer en VFR. Peu après, le contact radio et radar est perdu. L’avion est retrouvé détruit sur une paroi rocheuse.

During the flight the pilot closed his IFR flight plan to continue VFR. Radio and radar contact were lost shortly afterwards. The aircraft wreckage was found at a rock face.
Simon

AeroPlus wrote:

That is my take on it. It would help if the ATC recordings were available.

That’s the BEAs job now… And I am sure they are doing it.

LFPT, LFPN

How about a possible MSA setting configured in a Garmin 430 or similar box? I have MSA set to show on my Garmin device. What altitude would it show?

The GPS was a KLN94, as posted earlier. Maybe there is something deep in the menus but I have never seen it.

This is the actual panel:


The cigar lighter plug leads to something… so maybe a tablet was available.

He was flying straight towards the visual reporting point at the lake of Annecy and for sure would have cancelled IFR there. ATC would have asked him to tell them when ready to cancel IFR. Based on the direction in which he was flying I would think that he was trying to stay visual and fly through the valleys to Albertville. That did at some point not work out and thus he decided to divert.

The flight was then at FL064.

However the change could have occurred earlier because you can see the straight piece of track before the aircraft symbol which looks unreal and suggests FR24 contact was lost for that bit and then regained.

Did he fly some IAP in the area and then broke off it?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

If you fly IFR in the Eurocontrol system, you don’t (in theory) need to know about terrain because the enroute MEAs, and the AIPs, take care of it.

I assume that you mean “controlled IFR”. It is not quite true as the PIC is always responsible for terrain clearance unless being radar vectored. But anyway, outside the UK, IFR in class G is also “in the Eurocontrol system” and then most certainly you have to know about the terrain.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

I started a new thread on Eurocontrol IFR in Class G here

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Fuji_Abound wrote:

Not neccesasrily. Pilot have flown up valleys, seen the rising terrain, but still not managed to avoid it for various reasons in VMC.

I know, as I wrote earlier (in this thread I think) there usually are two possibilities. Getting trapped between sloping terrain and the cloud cover, and hitting a mountain in IMC. Here the wreckage had fallen down several hundred feet from the crash site, so sloping terrain does not seem all that likely. Depending on weather and surface condition, white out is also a possibility, but maybe not all that likely here. White out typically happen over large and flatter snow covered surfaces, not in between pointy mountains.

ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway
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