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D-ESPJ TB20 crash near Annecy, France, 25/11/2016

They were obviously not running any kind of VFR chart. The old 2013 Jepps show the elevations clearly

The popular French IGN chart (from 8/2016) looks like this

The “most official” French chart (SIA – this one is from a scan from 2010) is useless however, and shows “6500” right in the wrong place – what does that mean?

Significant?

But even my very pedestrian Garmin 495 was very capable and would give me very visible altitude alerts in such a situation, the 695 has a really good terrain database, which would, in emergency, allow to find a valley. But nothing beats a good virtual terrain, provided it is good enough in resolution.

Yes; my G496 does the same but when one is flying anywhere near terrain it is going off all the time. Also unless wired into the intercom (not really “legal” but very effective) you can’t hear the warnings; you can only see them on the little screen.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

what does that mean

Transition altitude

A cluttered chart like this is not really good when flying around in the mountains, even if displayed as moving map. Just imagine a bit of turbulence – good luck reading all the right numbers, or figuring out the floor of the valley – especially when flying track up.

The one thing that helps against CFIT is a proper EGPWS with moving map display and colour coding. Compared to that, synthetic vision is a nicer display, but essentially conveys the same information – which bits of rock are not far enough below you, and your point of impact if you head the wrong way…

Interestingly enough – when I was preparing for my Norway trip, I played with the EGPWS a bit… if you head straight for a ridge, there isn’t much time from the “caution, terrain” warning to needing to turn if you want to keep turns nice and comfortable…

Biggin Hill

Transition altitude

Interesting they were flying at 6500ft, then…. significant??

This is a piece of the German DFS chart (a bad scan, presumably to make people buy the paper ones)

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

From the newsletter WAZ
Berufspilot aus Olpe stirbt bei Flugzeugabsturz in Frankreich
27.11.2016 | 20:41 Uhr

Berufspilot aus Olpe stirbt bei Flugzeugabsturz in Frankreich
Bereits am Freitag wurde in Frankreich die Suche nach dem vermissten Flugzeug aufgenommen.Foto: Isabelle Guyader / France 3 Alpes
Olpe/Chambéry. Nicht nur in Fliegerkreisen herrscht große Bestürzung über den tödlichen Absturz eines Berufspiloten aus Olpe in den französischen Alpen.
In Olpe herrscht nicht nur in Fliegerkreisen große Bestürzung über den Tod eines Piloten und Geschäftsmanns, der nach Informationen dieser Redaktion am Freitag bei einem gemeinsamen Flug mit seinem Geschäftspartner und Freund in den französischen Wintersportort Albertville abgestürzt und ums Leben gekommen ist.
Flug von Dortmund nach Albertville
Der Olper, ein äußerst erfahrener und langjähriger Berufspilot, und sein Partner waren nach Aussage des Dortmunder Flughafenchefs Udo Mager am Freitag um 11.36 Uhr in Dortmund mit einer Propellermaschine des Typs TB 20 in Richtung des Wintersportorts Albertville in den französischen Alpen gestartet. Die Flugzeit dorthin beträgt zwei Stunden und 45 Minuten. Doch die Maschine hat ihr Ziel nie erreicht.

MEHR ZUM THEMA:
Sportflieger aus Dortmund in den Alpen abgestürzt: zwei Tote
Sportflieger aus Dortmund in den Alpen abgestürzt: zwei Tote
Bei einem Flugzeugunglück in Frankreich sind laut Medienberichten zwei Menschen gestorben. Die Maschine war auf dem Weg von Dortmund nach Albertville.
Noch in der Nacht zum Samstag wurde in Frankreich eine Suchaktion mit Feuerwehrleuten und mehreren Hubschraubern gestartet, an der sich auch Amateurfunker beteiligt haben sollen, indem sie versuchten, die Absturzstelle durch das Orten schwacher Signale einzugrenzen. Die Suchaktion musste aber wegen schlechten Wetters abgebrochen werden und wurde am frühen Samstagmorgen fortgesetzt.

Mittags wurde das völlig zerstörte Flugzeugwrack schließlich am Osthang des 2 200 Meter hohen Mont Trélod im Massif des Bauges nordöstlich der Stadt Chambéry gefunden. Die Retter konnten die beiden Insassen nur noch tot bergen, mehrere hundert Meter von der Stelle entfernt, an der die Maschine am Berg zerschellt war.

Staatsanwaltschaft Chambéry ermittelt
Die Staatsanwaltschaft Chambéry hat die Ermittlungen zur Absturzursache aufgenommen. Zum Absturzzeitpunkt soll schlechtes Wetter geherrscht haben. Heute soll eine Obduktion der Leichname stattfinden um festzustellen, ob es eventuell gesundheitliche Gründe für den Absturz geben könnte.

Berlin, Germany

Peter wrote:

I too run a topo map when flying above cloud-covered mountains, but you would need a lot of balls to be flying around/within mountain peaks in IMC, looking at an Ipad with its consumer-grade GPS optimised to locate the nearest Macdonalds, hoping that there will always be enough of a sky view to keep the GPS working.

I don’t think this is exactly what happens. I think people get visual at the base of IMC and try to fly the valleys. Terrain rises and they end up in very marginal VMC (ie IMC) and hit something. Or they try to cloud break into a valley. Either way it is very tricky and while it may work if you know exactly where you are, one mistake and….

I actually prefer the broader SA that an MFD terrain display presents compared to SV when in mountainous terrain. You can see valleys and get a lot of warning. SV is great I guess if you got really in the sh*t and are trying to swerve around mountains in IMC, but for overall awareness I like a view from above of the whole area.

That said, it seems like given the weather a descent in Chambery on the ILS then up the valley would have worked well.

EGTK Oxford

All in all, very strange. With cloudbase as high as the METARS indicate, a path through the valley via Chambery (even without ILS) or even via the lake Annecy where the valley floor is around 1,500ft MSL (although the valley is a bit narrow and has quite a bend) would not have been too hard.

I guess the final radar plot will shed some light – whether he took a turn into the wrong valley indicating a navigation mistake, or hit a downdraft when trying to cross the ridge indicating weather related troubles, went into the wall straight and level indicating loss of location awareness, or when trying to turn around… all “popular” causes of mountain flying accidents.

Biggin Hill

Just talked to the mountain instructor that was waiting for Stephan at Albertville. He was supposed to do the site license training for Courchevel. He does not know much more than we do, but he thinks that he got into IMC in the mountains as he was there at Albertville and could not see the top of the mountains as they were covered in the clouds.

EDLE, Netherlands

Peter wrote:

The “most official” French chart (SIA – this one is from a scan from 2010) is useless however, and shows “6500” right in the wrong place – what does that mean?

That chart (with the TA: 6500 on it) is not French. It’s the Swiss VFR chart. With that, it is also important to note that they include a caution note that says not to rely on this chart outside of Swiss territory.

Edit: I looked up that note. In German, it says that the foreign “air traffic control information” are to be used with caution. In English, it reads:

Aeronautical Information for territories outside of Switzerland are published with reservation. Consult AIP and NOTAM for the latest Aeronautical Information.

So I guess you could rely on the topographic information, but not on obstacles or airspaces, frequencies etc.

Last Edited by Rwy20 at 28 Nov 19:51

It is the SIA chart. I scanned it myself in 2010.

Since then I had better solutions for moving map stuff.

But Stefan would not have had that. He might have had the paper version

Any French pilot here with the current sia chart?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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