JasonC wrote:
they usually make it very clear when youcontact them that you need to tell them the specific time you want to leave. It has nothing to do with the flightplan per se. They usually send a specific form to notify police and/or customs.
Exactly. If you specifically advise the police etc (whether by email or dedicated form) that your departure time is 1030Z, file EOBT for 1100Z and get ATC permission to taxi at 1045Z the police can’t (shouldn’t) complain. You are departing after your advised time, not before it.
This topic is not trivial
Agree.
Plans change, and almost nobody re-emails the handler or the airport.
Not true. At least not if the flight is relevant for customs or police. Then you need to precise, or else, give them an update.
You file the flight plan and assure all interested parties see it.
Never assume anything. Particularly with flightplans. In the wider picture, customs/police don’t seem to routinely consult these.
You also assume the “airport” has some contact with the police; this is obviously necessary because the arrival time can easily be plus or minus 1hr, due to winds etc.
Don’t quite agree.
Generally though, PPR regulations for customs/immigration are a pain. As we saw here…
Be late for departure and customs/police will be pi$$ed because they were kept waiting.
Be early for departure and depart, then customs/police wil be REALLY pi$$ed.
Be early for departure and wait it out, then the pilot/passengers will be pi$$ed. 
For this reason, I try to use permanent customs/immigration places whereever possible.
Thank god the vast majority of GA flights in Europe don’t have anything to do with this stuff.
If you as PIC provide a departure time directly to customs/immigration, it is reasonable for them to assume that you will not depart earlier.
But if customs/immigration picks up your EOBT from the flight plan system, then they should understand what it means. And just like it means the time in UTC and not local time, it means that you may start taxying up to 15 minutes earlier.
Peter wrote:
The police had 1.5hrs to turn up but they waited till eobt minus 10 mins or so.
Especially considering they had four days to plan your interception!
Still amazed.
How can 10min before EOBT not be enough for a SEP ? How long do you run your engine before taxi?
EOBT is (def: eurocontrol) commencement of movement for departure.
So by definition, it is before taxiing…
And it is part of departure. Casual interpretatio is fine, just dont get too excited if others take the formal one.
Just as an afterthought, if they really want to make sure all is in order, then they should be there right when you get ready to depart – making sure all is as notified ;-)
@Peter – i did not mean your factual description of what happened to you in Avignon. And their behavior walking up to the holding position was far from appropriate IMHO. Some subsequent comments amazed me, though.
TJ wrote:
The rules are anything but clear – that’s the problem. Much has been made in this thread of the need to remain available until EOBT – but I think nobody has pointed to any regulation requiring this.
Unfortunately I would not know where to start looking. But I did remember that there was a statement about that in the VFR Guide to Norway.
Aircraft shall not depart before the time stated in the FPL without prior permission from the Customs service. Persons who arrive with the aircraft shall not leave the aircraft prior to the arrival time stated in the FPL.
But beyond legalities, it is to me just common sense that if you are subject to a check, have provided a prior notice, you cannot just leave early. That defeats the purpose of those checks. The officials could not possibly know when you arrive at the airport so they can come and seek you out, and furthermore, if they checked you one hour before departure you could sneak in an additional passenger between the tome of the check and the time of departure. So in the absence of a secure departure hall, they will check you at the time of boarding shift is shortly before EOBT.
I am not certain the British bobby would be amused if he showed up at the time for which I filed a GAR to find out I actually arrived 1h prior and have already left the airfield.
Peter wrote:
This topic is not trivial because the departure time (and the arrival time for that matter) which you email to the handler or the airport for PPR/PNR purposes is generally approximate only.And that is quite normal. Plans change, and almost nobody re-emails the handler or the airport.
Not it is not normal. When you have notified customs, you need to stick to your departure time or try to notify them about any change.
As you point out yourself, it is handling that provide customs with the PN based on the time of arrival or departure you provided. If you change your plans, you need to notify them, except that they can refuse because they have scheduled other tasks around your time of departure.
IIRC for the GAR system there is an “emergency number” you need to call in order to change your time of arrival if you get delayed for some reason. So just as everywhere else, they expect a notification if there is a change.
Your writing Aviathor is contrary to what I am certain you know happens at most French airports i.e. the police usually don’t even bother to turn up, so people come and go fairly casually. I’ve been flying into France for 16 years…
Practically nobody bothers to notify the UK GAR people about timing changes. They are competent enough to watch airport movements via other means, and they know when you will land. Even just FR24 does the job nicely.
And for mainland European departures they don’t care anyway (watching departures is 99% job creation; 99.9% on mainland Europe which has no meaningful borders).
Peter wrote:
Practically nobody bothers to notify the UK GAR people about timing changes.
autorouter does it automatically when you file the GAR with it. The UK GAR people appreciate that service.
And for mainland European departures they don’t care anyway
German authorities care a lot about it for extra Schengen flights. The consequences can be severe.
If you notify customs of your departure time, you should not leave before that time. Personally, I tell customs that I’m planning on leaving about 30 mins before I actually plan to. This means that I’m at the aircraft at that time anyway if they turn up but I can still leave on time. EOBT doesn’t come into it at all.
But if I follow this case correctly, Peter didn’t tell customs anything. That was done by ATC on his behalf. So they probably notified EOBT. If his is normal procedure at the airport, then customs would have know that they were being informed of EOBT.
EOBT is the time that you should be commencing your taxi. It would be wholly inappropriate for customs to turn up at that stage, as if everything is going to plan, you are already in the aircraft, with the engine running and calling for taxi. If they want to do a check, it should be done EOBT less time for boarding, less time for starting up, less time for them to complete their checks. They should not be delaying a flight beyond its EOBT because they turned up late. It can have implications at the other end for airport opening times or end of day time.
