Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

An interesting point of view on Europe, from a US pilot

with the shipping documents attached to the OUTSIDE of the package…

I had this precise “conversation” with DHL, to whom I sent photos of the package, showing each of the six sides had a huge AIRCRAFT PARTS sticker, and who told me they never see the package when doing the Customs submission. It is done purely on the documents which come with the box

Then they did it again a short time later, because the US vendor had a mistake on their parts list and didn’t know the TB GT has a different tail, so had to send different parts.

However the prize goes to the company which sent a parcel to my exact address in Sussex but with Hong Kong instead of UK, and when months later it arrived and I phoned them, their “export manageress” told me she thought the UK was in Hong Kong. I appreciate this is the current wish of much of the EU but this was many years ago.

no need for CAMO, , (i can also do a lot of pilot owner maintnance) as it is written in my IHP for my ELA2 aircraft also lots of items “on conditions” etc.

I wonder what % of German owners do this? It sounds like it is way higher than elsewhere.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

The article looks a bit like the collected prejudices most Americans may have about Europe combined with a large lack of knowledge. I’ve seen the opposite as well, Europeans who think in America you can do just about everything and then get rightly slapped on their wrist (or kicked elsewhere in more severe cases) for total ignorance of their rules and regulations.

In addition it appears that some folks in the industry in Europe did not really know what they were doing either with an American and his N-Reg plane. Maybe they did not take it too kindly that there was a guy who did not speak the local language and decided to have their way with him?

Where he has got a point is ownership, which is much more normal in the US than here, mainly due to the way society sees wealth and possession. There the US and Europe are fundamentally different. Showing wealth and the possibility to buy stuff, even if it is much less than what they imagine it to be, is still shunned by large parts of society. Apart, prices in Europe are much higher than in America for aviation related items, another bit where he has got a point. While in the US people with lower medium income can get into ownership still quite nicely and also have financing readily available, this does not apply to Europe to a large degree. The same goes for a lot of other stuff too, again, some countries excluded. This changes slowly, but I remember times when owning property in Switzerland was something only maybe 10% of the population could afford or rather thought they could afford. By now, it’s considerably higher, but when I was a kid, many people felt that due to their social standing they were not even entitled to own anything as that was something for another level of people. I never thought this to be a good thing and “violated” it quite early by buying a plane with 20 and a house with 30.

I have been trying to change the perception about airplane ownership for a long time but it is a very difficult undertaking. Social stigmas are too much inprinted in too many brains to simply overcome. But in many European countries salaries are way too low to allow anything to far too many people and the movement is down, not up. Clearly, folks which have to make do with 600 Euros per month can not dream of anything really and frankly I wonder how they get by. So while in America middle class workers can think about airplane ownership, in Europe you need to be in the upper 50% of the salary spectrum to consider it. That of course limits the number of people who would enter this world quite massively. Then add the clubs who actively discourage ownership so not to loose their renters income. All in all, the author is not totally out of touch with reality there.

The rest is clearly wrong information as per the CAMO stuff and other things.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Yes, the couriers all do customs clearance before the package arrives, but the Royal Mail still needs docs on the outside of the parcel.

she thought the UK was in Hong Kong.

These things happen. There’s also a tendency to assume that all alphanumeric postal codes are in Canada. The USPS once sent a parcel of rifle triggers to us via Liberia (making a bit of a mockery of strict US export controls). Still, most of them got here eventually, so in that sense I suppose the postal workers in Texas were right – Africa and Europe are near enough the same foreign country.

Glenswinton, SW Scotland, United Kingdom
as you listed here

http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/faa-nreg/easa-owner-maint.pdf
I have all points allowed in my CAA approved MP !

I think the issue here is

1. you need a 145 shop that is happy to do so, as they have to write the MP ( as it is ELA2 – but this should also change shortly) and get it approved from the CAA (LBA) the previous owners MP had nothing at all written that can be done by the pilot owner!

2. the thurst/relationship you have with your 145 so you will be able to work with them on your aircraft during the time it is in the workshop for maintanance/repair etc. and for sure there are very different cases for this depending a bit where you do your maintaince (even easier if it is your home airfield)

there have been in Germany just before Xmas a release from the LBA about the “famous” AVIONIK tests regime in Germany as this has been a major cost factor (as reported here in some other threads) due to the more or less CARTEL of avionic shops in germany. NfL 2-382-17

this looks now to be gone or at least major softend as most instruments can now be checked according the mfg. Instructions for Continued Airworthiness (ICAWs)
so mainly the transponder checks needs still to be done by avionic shops due the the required equipment

coming back the the pilot owner maintainance issue that should also be soon easier for ELA2 including self declared IMP to the CAA when the awaited Part M Light cames
i did read this on the 02-01-2018 AOPA site as a feedback from a EASA meeting on the 2/3 Nov 2017

so hope dies last lol

Part M Light

The implementation of the much-anticipated Part M Light with its simplified maintenance requirements for aircraft up to 2730 kg MTOM is further delayed. The reasons for this are obviously a few translation errors, which were noticed shortly before the publication. EASA explained that the late entry into force was a serious problem for its credibility, as the changes were announced months ago at the AERO Friedrichshafen so that no further delays can be accepted. We can not agree anymore. Affected by the delay is also the entry into force of the new lighter maintenance license

fly2000

Mooney_Driver wrote:

So while in America middle class workers can think about airplane ownership, in Europe you need to be in the upper 50% of the salary spectrum to consider it.

I challenge that assumption. I can not afford aircraft ownership even being in the top 10% salary wise. Admittedly I have a markedly higher cost of living with two small children than others with the same income, but unless someone is single and has no other priorities in life apart from flying, I don’t see how one could own a certified aircraft with a lower income than mine.

EDIT: FYI according to Der Spiegel you are in the top 10% in Germany with a monthly net income (after taxes and social security contributions) of 3073€ or more.

Last Edited by MedEwok at 14 Jan 11:07
Low-hours pilot
EDVM Hildesheim, Germany

Thanks for the feedback MedEwok.

This would mean that in Germany the salaries are again much lower than here. I took the 50% figure from my own situation. I am exactly on the Swiss average with my salary, which means there are 50% below and 50% above me and I can afford my plane without a problem so far and I also have a child.

I heard most complaints about this from Germany and Austria btw. Actually, the 600 Euro salaries e.t.c. are from these figures.

The question about whether you can afford a plane and what plane depends strongly on which plane you choose. There are planes which have higher bills and such which have much lower cost. A PA140 for instance costs much less in maintenance and flying cost than my plane, basically because it has fixed gear and prop and in most cases few VFR instruments to deal with. Same goes for a Cessna 150 or similar planes. And the moment you can share the cost with some friend or other pilots, be it as co-owners or them doing hours for you, things change again.

Also some times I wonder about people who keep insisting they can’t buy a plane but then turn up in a Tesla. I can’t afford a Tesla, not by a long margin, but I can afford a plane the way I use it.

With 2 kids however, the problem I’d see rather pressing than money is time. I can see how it is with one. Since my daughter was born, I have flown less than 10 hours.

But to pick up the topic of the thread: In America you probably could afford a plane with your salary with the lower costs they have there and the much relaxed maintenance requirements. I know quite some folk in the US who are in your salary range who do have planes and a family too.

Last Edited by Mooney_Driver at 14 Jan 11:49
LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

MedEwok wrote:

has no other priorities in life apart from flying,

FAA A&P/IA
LFPN

NIL: I’m an American ex-pat from the Mecca of GA flying – So Cal. I’ve all but given up on trying to educate other Americans that flying in Europe is not all that different, despite the minor differences. Et the end of the day, I feel I get the same utility and pleasure of flying in Europe as I and they do in the US.

As far as the “affordability” of GA flying in general and ownership in particular: When you want something bad enough- you find a way !

When I started flying I had a very young family and could not even imagine that I could afford my own plane.

But guess what ?

It MOTIVATED me to work harder & smarter to have the means to be able to afford it.

Now I make my living in GA and I think nothing of owning a plane and flying all over Europe on a regular basis.

Motivation is a very powerful driver .

Last Edited by Michael at 14 Jan 13:38
FAA A&P/IA
LFPN

It seems to me that the American with the Cub is banging his head squarely against European aeronautical bureaucracy and hoping it will bend to his will… and not recognizing that this will never happen.

I have considered keeping a very simple N-register plane in Europe for a couple of years, then bringing it back to the US. This would be a similar scheme to that which friends have enjoyed with classic cars – it’s fairly common for Americans to ship an old car (an Alfa or Lotus perhaps, that sort of thing) and drive it for a couple of years all over the Alps etc. on US plates before shipping it home. I originally figured why not do the same with a plane? If you’re smart, I don’t think the issue is maintenance issues. I’d find a way to get FAA A&P maintenance/sign-offs and I’m sure I could find a place to work on the plane, in Italy where there are lots of grass strips, small hangars here and there, and where people are often helpful. I’d source any parts needed in the US and either hand carry them to the plane or have a friend in the US ship them – nothing would be shipped by the US vendor and I don’t think much would be sourced locally. I don’t think there’s a need to confront entrenched bureaucracy to maintain a simple N-registered plane unless you just want to do it for sport, or to write about it like this guy. The real issue for me in doing the above is cross-country operational requirements – crossing national borders, flight plans and airspace related radio/transponder requirements. Those issues would mean spending lots of money on the plane, modifying it in ways I don’t find palatable, and/or dealing with ATC and planning hassles that would for me negate the fun. It’s not directly analogous to shipping and driving the old car internationally within Europe for a couple of summers, even if it should be.

All those operational issues aside, if you just want to own a plane and fly it in either the US or in Europe, you can, as long as you can find a place to keep it that isn’t ‘over managed’… I bought my first plane for $22K, less than 20K Euros, and it’s worth about that today. It’s a thing of great beauty, I had a wonderful time with it from Day 1 and nobody but me and friends have worked on it for 15 years. OK, it’s a simple certified plane that cruises at 83 kts, but so what? Flying is fun, you can learn a great deal doing that sort of flying and carry it with you forever. I continue to dream of flying my simple plane in Europe someday, even if I were to fly it only within Italy where for the most part blending in with the ultralights may make operating that kind of plane relatively straightforward (potential tax issues aside!)

Last Edited by Silvaire at 14 Jan 18:27

Mooney_Driver wrote:

I am exactly on the Swiss average with my salary, which means there are 50% below and 50% above me

That is a median, not average, just my 5 eurocents

ESME, ESMS
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top