The Plymouth Mil DAs are notified as active Mon-Fri and by NOTAM. On Saturdays & Sundays they (generally) don’t exist. At this point the CDR1s (correctly identified by Cobalt) ‘exist’ and are available to ATC, but they may choose not to use them. There is no mechanism to have the DAs and Airways co-existing.
CDR3s are, again as Cobalt eloquently points out, tactically available when a scenario has changed. Generally speaking, this happens when the military go home early on a Friday and hand the airspace across before the notified time. I’m not aware of ANY tactical use of CDR3s within the UK apart from this scenario. In fact, the only time I have seen anything close is when cutting the corner across the EG-D323 complex (North Sea) and even then the civil sector would hand traffic to the military for the ‘off-route’ element. Why? The civil system plans on the airspace not being given to them and consequently all flow and sector planning is based on this assumption. To tactically open a sector brings additional problems such as increased integration complexity/sector over-load and, from a safety perspective, may actually increase the hazard. Praising Cobalt for a third time 
, he identified that M185 has an MEA of 20,000ft and consequently is automatically within Class C airspace when the DAs are inactive, thus providing an adequate level of en-route safety but without addressing the other problems I have just identified. For below FL195, the mechanism does not (yet) exist in the UK where a bit of Class G DA can be tactically morphed into a Class A/C/D airway; no CAS = highly unlikely IFR service from London Control.
Peter – joining CAS. London Control will only accept responsibility for you once you enter CAS as the instructed post/level. If you’re really lucky you may get a TS/BS from them but that is unusual. It is fair to say that they would take into consideration other airspace when issuing a joining clearance, hence their preferred “on track DRAKE” rather than NEVIL when departing Shoreham etc.
I am glad to learn the complex organization of UK ATC.
At the end of this video, it seems a Cirrus is cleared through the Channel D areas at FL90. Hope it gives another data point to your thinking.
Where in SD do you turn on weekend mode.
Jujupilote wrote:
At the end of this video, it seems a Cirrus is cleared through the Channel D areas at FL90. Hope it gives another data point to your thinking.
Not at all.
What day (weekday or weekend)?
What time (aircraft clock indicates 18:21)? The apparent route for transit (NEVIL-NOTGI) passes through EG-D40 which is active 0700-1700 and by NOTAM.
Who cleared (them) through a piece of Class G airspace?
“We’re talking to London” – which London?
Which day : not sure but Cherbourg restaurant is closes on Sundays so it could be a Sunday.
What time : he says the FPL is filed for 1900 local at Deauville so 1800Z.
Which London : given the radio chatter at night and the altitude of FL100, I would bet it was London Control.
Were they cleared for the D areas ? I don’t know, but it seems London Control accepted they cross this area, maybe at their own risk.
I just flew through, having first got clearance from Plymouth Mil, then passing that on to London, who cleared me NEVIL direct MID.
This puts my “lack of sense” and the absolute impenetrability of the airspace into a certain amount of perspective.
You can look up G-ILZZ on FR24 if you’d like more detail.
Not exactly a ground breaking piece of evidence. You obtained a DACS from Plymouth Mil (absolutely nothing new there since a Pontius was a pilot was….) and then talked to London Control who basically cleared you to (re)join CAS on track MID. What service were you getting from London Control whilst within the DA and prior to entering CAS somewhere near DESNA? I’m pretty sure they weren’t providing any form of Air Traffic Control Service; you were in Class G.
Rob wrote:
Where in SD do you turn on weekend mode.
Dave_Phillips wrote:
Not exactly a ground breaking piece of evidence.
I agree this was always a non-thread. Peter started by saying that you can never get through the DAs, and that, even though an IFR route will be validated through, it cannot be flown. Neither of these premises is correct, as I showed yesterday.
Dave_Phillips wrote:
You obtained a DACS from Plymouth Mil (absolutely nothing new there since a Pontius was a pilot was….) and then talked to London Control who basically cleared you to (re)join CAS on track MID. What service were you getting from London Control whilst within the DA and prior to entering CAS somewhere near DESNA? I’m pretty sure they weren’t providing any form of Air Traffic Control Service; you were in Class G.
I called Plymouth while still working Deauville. They said that there was no hazardous activity above 3500’ and I could tell London that. London gave me a Control Service until entering, then a Basic Service outside, then a Control Service re-entering the Worthing CTA.
Is not the idea of this forum to further and disseminate knowledge? The three assertions that:
are demonstrably not right; I hope that others can learn from this.
Peter started by saying that you can never get through the DAs
No; read my posts.
Empirical evidence will always trump a theory which says otherwise and in 12 years of flying IFR I never got cleared through there, weekend or not, until the last occassion which I wrote about. AND that occassion was ambiguous because the flight was at a level at which London Control rarely offer a service (and usually chuck you out to FIS 124.60).
Eurocontrol should always route through there (whenever not contraindicated by either “MON-FRI” or notam) and London Control should do likewise (with a Basic Service while in the Class G portion).
Maybe there has been a recent change. Future flights will produce more data… It’s a pity that UK ATC is bound by the Official Secrets Act / MATS Part 2 / NATS policy on employee participation, and rarely posts anything informative publicly.
I hope that others can learn from this.
Indeed!
Technical discussion, and dissent, are always encouraged here on EuroGA and this is an example of it working
