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Why do some airports demand a VAT number to sell you avgas?

The checksum for the VAT number is prob99 public domain, so if the purpose is purely temporary, you could just generate one… Unfortunately one can do a lookup back to the company name, and possibly its address, so this method would be usable only if you are leaving the country in question right afterwards

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

The checksum for the VAT number is prob99 public domain, so if the purpose is purely temporary, you could just generate one… Unfortunately one can do a lookup back to the company name, and possibly its address, so this method would be usable only if you are leaving the country in question right afterwards

The EU has an online service to validate VAT numbers: http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/vies. It doesn’t just check how the number is made up but actually checks with the tax authorities in the country in question. I’ve tried a few fake Swedish VAT numbers with correct form and the web site correctly reports that the numbers are invalid. So it’s not quite that simple.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

I called and said I didn’t have a VAT number as a private pilot. They asked to send the Full name/Date of birth/Birthplace instead

LFMD

Another one that winds me up. Why do package delivery companies require a phone number for the delivery? It’s daft, they are delivering to an address not a telephone line.

Darley Moor, Gamston (UK)

Because some delivery services do a good job and contact the customer in case of problems – rare, but not unheard of

EHLE / Lelystad, Netherlands, Netherlands

Really useful discussion. But no conclusion.

I have flown into Spain many times over the last six or seven years for air touring. Wonderful country lovely people. Great flying.

Before I retired I had access to a U.K. VAT number. Any valid U.K. VAT number works. But identified as a private individual life becomes complex.

Have often experienced the problem discussed earlier in the threads. I know the airports that operate this discrimination and those that don’t. It is the arbitrary nature which is confusing. Seemingly the fuel operatives local software on the computer demands that a certain field be completed.

Some airports seem to have a default code that they fill in to identify you as a foreigner outside the scope of the “system”, but they only use this code after checking on the phone with head office.

It is possible to purchase a tax CIF which translates your national UTR I.e. personal tax number into an identification document for Spain which acceptable number to their systems, but this system is really designed for those non Spanish National with over three months residency in Spain.

Often if you have a fuel card such as BP Sterling that is sufficient identification, but the solution is not guaranteed.

On two occasions it has necessitated me speaking to the Airport Director who then gave the Fuel Handler direct instructions to proceed. This takes up valuable time as you can imagine.

Ultimately I have obtained fuel using the workaround methods described. Sometimes the documentation that you sign is in both English and Spanish. Other times it is Spanish only. Please ensure that you carefully mark the box to say that you do want to pay taxes and local VAT.

So currently a problem without a perfect solution. But awareness is key.

United Kingdom

Hitch wrote:

So currently a problem without a perfect solution

Is there an issue in buying fuel vat & local taxes included on a dummy number?

Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

In these Spanish scenarios where they demand a VAT number, you still do pay the VAT.

It is not as if you were presented some fake evidence of a commercial flight and got the VAT and/or the fuel futy taken off. That was commonly done all over southern Europe in the good old days, sometimes assisted by wearing the proper pilot uniform, but it stopped working about 10 years ago.

So while it may be a “technical crime” to use somebody else’s VAT number, you have not ripped anybody off by doing this.

And every pilot who has his own VAT registered business but is not actually flying down there on business (true perhaps 99% of the time in these cases) is going to use his VAT number anyway, so that situation is exactly the same.

HOWEVER (and I have written this before) – I got a strange situation about 10 years ago, at Caglieri LIEE, where they hassled my company for months afterwards for evidence that it was a commercial flight. So kept telling them to f*** off because it was not a commercial flight. I merely gave them the VAT # which they demanded. And I paid the VAT. No idea what that was about and they eventually gave up. That was Italy, not Spain (not much difference in corporate transparency perhaps?) but it suggests that if you just borrow some stranger’s VAT number, that company might get some funny correspondence afterwards and might get really p1ssed off… Therefore, I would not regard using a real company’s VAT # as a good solution.

A lot depends on the scenario and timing. If you are just passing through, you can make one up, because you will be gone by the time anybody questions it. For the UK, use GB followed by 9 digits. They may be validating it (there is a website) but probably not right away. But they might. A lot of “online shop” systems validate a VAT number – actually this is necessary for any business which offers a zero VAT invoice to a foreign (but EU) customer. So you want a valid number for sure. 5 mins on google gets you the information you need

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Hi Pete
I’m not suggesting you use another company’s VAT number. Far from it. I would only use a number to which I am entitled. The point is on the twenty or thirty times I have uploaded fuel in Spain I have been through this sequence of events one in three times. Using a VAT number without entitlement is an offence. The point being made is that sometimes uploading fuel is a quick process. Sometimes it is not. Spain’s sovereign documentation requirement is their business. Be prepared.

Regards

United Kingdom

In which case, surely that makes it an offence (at such an airport) to buy fuel as a private individual? I can use our company’s VAT number, but if we’re in Spain in the Auster, we’re buying the fuel for us as individuals, not as officers of our company. Unless you’re there on business surely (at least legally speaking) this means you’re totally stuck unless you have enough fuel remaining to go somewhere which doesn’t demand your VAT number.

(Incidentally, if it requires a DNI and all it does is do a check digit validation, all the zeros passes the check digit algorithm)

Last Edited by alioth at 22 Nov 17:21
Andreas IOM
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