In this particular case of the pilot logbook, one could ask for proof of a legal requirement to carry such information onboard at all, whether that be original, copy, or signed printout. I suspect that only the NAA that issued the licence can require proof of currency, but I might be wrong. Perhaps someone can provide an authoritative reference on that point.
chflyer wrote:
In this particular case of the pilot logbook, one could ask for proof of a legal requirement to carry such information onboard at all, whether that be original, copy, or signed printout.
I recall being asked original noise certificate for an N-reg, I opted for “I do not have it on me but I will send it when I get it” rather than debating on a hot day that such thing does not exist, let alone it is not a legal requirement 
For the rest, I just keep printed copies in aircraft and phone pictures with me
Noe wrote:
As an electronic only person, I wold ask them to show where there was a requirement to have something printed.
FCL.050 Recording of flight time
The pilot shall keep a reliable record of the details of all flights flown in a form and manner established by the competent authority.
AMC1 to FCL.050
(c) Format of the record:
(1) details of flights flown under commercial air transport may be recorded in a computerised format maintained by the operator. In this case an operator should make the records of all flights operated by the pilot, including differences and familiarisation training, available upon request to the flight crew member concerned;
(2) for other types of flight, the pilot should record the details of the flights flown in the following logbook format. For sailplanes and balloons, a suitable format should be used that contains the relevant items mentioned in (a) and additional information specific to the type of operation.
(e) Flight crew logbook entries should be made as soon as practicable after any flight undertaken. All entries in the logbook should be made in ink or indelible pencil.
So according to the AMC, pilots not flying CAT must use a paper logbook. The part about “ink or indelible pencil” makes that clear.
On the other hand, there could be AltMOCs that permit private flights to be recorded in a computerised format.
The Swedish Transport Authority has made an even more flexible interpretation — namely that a signed printout from a computerised logbook is the official logbook. Since you don’t have to produce the logbook on the spot in case of a ramp check, you can print logbook pages later, sign them and everything will be fine. (Although given the “as soon as practicable bit” this might be stretching it.
So according to the AMC, pilots not flying CAT must use a paper logbook.
There is fundamentally no difference between a traditional paper logbook, and a computer logbook where you print off each page’s worth, punch 2 holes in it, and put it in a ring binder.
Either one can be forged, and has been on thousands of occassions, by both private and commercial pilots… If necessary you can buy a new logbook and rewrite it from the start, to create a fake portion in the middle. Many stories I can’t post
So I think the objections come from people who don’t want to print anything at all. That’s always going to be problematic, in any chain of evidence. This is why the police use ballpens and notebooks (or used to); there is a lot of forensics you can do on a “notebook” e.g. the print-through to the page below.
@bookworm will know more about this than most, from the EASA-inside intention POV, but he’s clearly moved on.
Emir wrote:
first time I wasn’t signing daily preflight check, second time I didn’t have ARC in paper form – I had it only on iPad.
What’s the text in NCO that requires a preflight check, and how is it done in reality (by signing the journey log)?
Snoopy wrote:
What’s the text in NCO that requires a preflight check, and how is it done in reality (by signing the journey log)?
I can’t find any. In part-M (AMC to M.A.306) a “pre-flight inspection signature” is mentioned, but M.A.306 only applies to commercial operations.
how is it done in reality (by signing the journey log)?
Yes, signing off the first flight on particular date.
Logbooks are not required to be carried so whether you keep a paper one or print and sign if requested, is irrelevant.
Airborne_Again wrote:
EASA regs don’t require you to carry the pilot logbook during flight. Does the FAA have that requirement?
Not for international operations done by the holder of at least a private pilot certificate. 14 CFR 61.51(i).
The only international operation requiring the logbook to be carried is a solo training flight conducted between Juneau Haines or Gustavus and Whitehorse by a student pilot. 14 CFR 61.89(a)(5). Other international operations done by recreational or sport pilot certificate holders with a permission from the relevant contracting state may be required by 61.51(i) or the foreign state to carry a logbook but these examples are not relevant here.
The only domestic US operation requiring the holder of at least a commercial pilot certificate to carry the logbook, satisfied in the alternative by a letter of competency, is a rotorcraft external-load carrying operation. 14 CFR 133.37. The remaining domestic requirements are imposed on student, recreational, and sport pilots.
The ansatz adopted by FAA inspectors for pilots certificated at or above the private pilot level is that the required endorsements and recent experience are satisfied.
FAA Order 8900.1, vol 6, ch 1, s 4, para 6-101D (link):
If available, examine pilot logbooks (or other reliable records) to determine recency of experience and qualifications, such as:
The standards established in ICAO Annex 1 on the validity of and specifications for licences are:
—————————————————————————————
ICAO ANNEX 1
1.2.5 Validity of licences
1.2.5.1 A Contracting State, having issued a licence, shall ensure that the privileges granted by that licence, or by related
ratings, are not exercised unless the holder maintains competency and meets the requirements for recent experience established
by that State.
1.2.5.1.2 A Contracting State, having issued a licence, shall ensure that other Contracting States are enabled to be
satisfied as to the validity of the licence.
…
Note 2.— Maintenance of competency may be satisfactorily recorded in the operator’s records, or in the flight crew
member’s personal log book or licence.
…
5.1.1.1 A Contracting State having issued a licence shall ensure that other States are able to easily determine the licence
privileges and validity of ratings.
Note.— Operator records or a flight crew member’s personal log book, in which maintenance of competency and recent
experience may be satisfactorily recorded, are not normally carried on international flights
—————————————————————————————
Similarly the last sentence and ensuing note in para 10.3.1 of ICAO Doc 9379:
Recency requirements are easily verified by inspection of company records or pilot logbooks.
Note.— Pilot logbooks are not required to be on board aircraft in international civil aviation operations
In light of these notes it is evidently an exigent prosecution for inspectors to require the immediate presentation of a pilot logbook.
tmo wrote:
On a tangent – the “original” Radio License from the FCC (N-reg) is a PDF. There never is a physical piece of paper issued by the relevant authority. To the best of my recollection both the license for the plane and for the pilot. A temporary registration also.
When did FCC stop issuing authenticated radiotelephone operator permits? The issuing administration is required to make these available to licence holders pursuant to article 37 of the Radio Regulation. That article requires the holder to sign the authenticated copy which cannot be satisfied by a PDF print out. The FCC Universal Licensing System makes online copies of operator permits and aircraft radio station authorizations available to the public but these carry the following notice:
This is not an official FCC license. It is a record of public information contained in the
FCC’s licensing database on the date that this reference copy was generated. In cases
where FCC rules require the presentation, posting, or display of an FCC license, this
document may not be used in place of an official FCC license.
The FCC is required by 47 CFR 13.17 to issue licence holders with a duplicate or replacement permit on application. That can be done using form FCC 605 at a cost of 70 USD. If FCC is not honouring this requirement then perhaps a certified copy could be requested pursuant to 47 CFR 0.465(c)(3) from the Office of the Secretary either online (link) or by phone—query the directory (link) for Marlene Dortch or Jason Lewis.
The permanent (three year) one comes in the mail as a physical piece of paper, true.
The aircraft radio station authorization has a validity period of ten years. 47 CFR 87.27. Perhaps it is aircraft stations “licensed by rule” (47 CFR 87.18), for aircraft not operated internationally, that have a three year validity based on the validity period of the certificate of aircraft registration? Otherwise an individual station license (sic) must be posted in the aircraft. 47 CFR 87.103.
Snoopy wrote:
What’s the text in NCO that requires a preflight check, and how is it done in reality (by signing the journey log)?
Probably NCO.GEN.105 covering PIC responsibilities. That rule references Annex IV (essential requirements for air operations) in the repealed Basic Regulation. These are now in Annex V to the current Basic Regulation. Those essential requirements are invoked by article 59 of Basic Regulation to cover the performance expected of third-country operators in the absence of applicable ICAO standards. A signature verifying the completion of a pre-flight check should not be required for private operations regulated by the Basic Regulation but not coming under rule M.A.306 in Part-M. See posts by bookworm in thread EASA Journey Log requirements (link).
