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Hello and help! (PPL or LAPL or UL)

There have been various posts here from people in the training business, reporting a near zero LAPL takeup – example (bear in mind that comment is from France, from where there is well below average international touring, so the LAPL should be popular!)

The other aspect – also written about enough times – is that the average student takes some 40hrs to reach the minimum competence for flying somewhere at all. FWIW, the UK PPL average time is 55-65hrs depending on where you look, against the min time of 45hrs. I took about 60 – I was 43 years then, FWIW – and I would dread sharing a flight with somebody who got out in say 35hrs. So any hourly savings are likely to be illusory and are little more than differently priced items on the flying school menu, the cheaper ones of which are not worth eating.

In fact the flight training business has been the main driver behind these cut-down licenses, because they create lower priced items on the menu, which draws in the business, and people either come out substandard (and give up fast, which is fine ) or they upgrade and continue training towards the fill PPL. And the training has in some places been structured to enable the start to be done as LAPL and then when the two syllabi begin to diverge the customer (who by then has “seen the light”) moves to the full PPL pipeline.

The best way to do a PPL is to collect some “mentoring” i.e. unlogged flying with an experienced pilot, and then do all the exams and then do the PPL training officially. I did that with one guy and he did brilliantly. 45hrs TT exactly. I now see him posting pics out of “his” Learjet. I then started with another guy but he wasn’t committed and put it on the back burner. I believe he finished his PPL about 2 years later… 2 steps forward and one backwards, like most people do, and doubtless it cost him an absolute fortune – probably 2x more than the first one, even though both did it at the same place.

So one needs to be aware the differences are not what they seem. As I said earlier, anything short of the full ICAO PPL is a dead end. The LAPL is virtually dead and is not worth doing unless you have specific medical conditions (like the UK NPPL actually). The ultralight PPL is not worth doing unless you are budget-limited to the UL scene and are in a position to achieve the “promised land” i.e. are the type which is happy to spend the weekend on your back changing the clutch in your 1969 MGB GT / be working on the plane while your wife is cursing your new hobby and are likely to remain thus budget-limited for ever (because your hours mostly won’t count).

Just my opinion but I have seen a few people go up this ladder.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

changing the clutch in your 1969 MGB GT

Never a consideration!

EBCI Charleroi, Belgium

tmo wrote:

That said, maintaining the SEP(L) rating probably isn’t that big of a deal – a skill test flight every two years.

I assume this entails going up with a quaified assessor? What would that cost?

EBCI Charleroi, Belgium
the flight training business has been the main driver behind these cut-down licenses

Ultralight flying is not taught by the flight training business. It seems obvious to me that the “flight training business” (where they are aimed at anything more than ATPL) is rather unhappy with the microlight phenomenon because every happy microlighter is one potential PPL customer less.

OTOH they may have been the driving force behind the LAPL, in an effort to recover the low budget end of the market. As stated, it is not very successful.

Last Edited by at 19 Aug 06:45
EBZH Kiewit, Belgium

Peter wrote:

As I said earlier, anything short of the full ICAO PPL is a dead end

Nonsense. You can take the microlight license and fly all over Europe for the fraction of the cost of a rented 1970 C-172. A modern microlight has retracts, CS prop and cruises at 150 kts. You can also take PPL theory and use that for the microlight license. With a microlight license you can shave off 15 h when you take the PPL, and by then you already have 100s of hours flying, and will get PPL at minimum hours. Nothing is “wasted” – unless you have your plans 100% set up – and they involve exclusively flying IFR on autopilot from A to B for the rest of you life (which you just as well could do in a simulator IMO, or get a professional license and get paid for it).

It depends on what you want to do. If you want to just “fly”, then do whatever is needed to fly as much as possible within the amount of time you have available. Sure, flying in an Epic is much more spectacular than a microlight, and an Epic will take you around the world in style and comfort with it’s turbine and pressurized carbon fiber airframe. But, unless you actually can afford it, there is no use pretending it is a future goal.

Besides, I am sure if everyone with a PPL listed their “flying CV”, you will find that the majority has done (and is doing) all sorts of different things. There are no dead ends. This is a hobby, for most of us at least, and it has two major constraints: time and money. You will (within certain “psychological” restrictions) get as much out of it as you possible can, by arranging so you can fly as much as possible with the amount of time and money you have available. Some people will say it’s not worth it unless you can fly IFR in a TP around the world, others will say it’s not worth it unless you can cut the engine and soar a couple of hours when you want to. This is just them advocating what they themselves find interesting, and has nothing to do with GA in a broad perspective. Nevertheless, you cannot escape the fact that when starting up, what you need is flying hours, and to get as much as possible is done with microlights.

Last Edited by LeSving at 19 Aug 07:24
The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

LeSving wrote:

You can take the microlight license and fly all over Europe

not really. UL is not ICAO aircraft and not all the countries are accepting ULs from other countries by default. Generally speaking you need approval to fly abroad -unless there is agreement. For example Germany is accepting ULs from other countries without any paper work but Austria not (at least some years ago, I am not in that business for while)
But if you and your PAX are light enough to fit into MTOW, if you are ok with limited countries you can fly without additional paper work (and sometimes expenses, Austria was charging 250EUR for UL overflight approval) no problem, go for UL.

LKKU, LKTB

Michal wrote:

But if you and your PAX are light enough

OK, PAX. Why bring someone? The only reason I have seen around here is to cut cost. Anyway, you can fly in most of Europe. The very few places you cannot, you can save for the day you get your PPL and your SR22 That is, if your “mission” is collecting countries in your log book.

I mean, let’s look at the big picture for a change, without advocating personal restrictions and peculiarities.

The elephant is the circulation
ENVA ENOP ENMO, Norway

LeSving wrote:

Why bring someone?

because shared experience is even better ;-). Sure, sometimes you want to fly on your own but most of the time I am happy to take someone with me. But I am not trying to tell this is true for everybody.
“most of Europe” is a question for me, depends on your location and your aircraft range. I have such restriction only 50 km south and east of my home.
But this is not about UL is wrong/dead end or whatever. This is about mission and preference. I know people being happy flying UL only and I am far away from trying to convince them this is not the right thing to do. Definitely not, it´s personally choice and preference.

LKKU, LKTB

OK, PAX. Why bring someone? The only reason I have seen around here is to cut cost. Anyway, you can fly in most of Europe. The very few places you cannot, you can save for the day you get your PPL and your SR22 That is, if your “mission” is collecting countries in your log book.

@LeSving – I suggest you review your posting style. Also if you don’t like it “around here” then you know what you can do: go somewhere else. The internet is full of pilot forums where people can post offensive stuff. They are great for generating advertising revenue, so you would be doing somebody a favour. Finally, look up the definition of “most”.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

LeSving wrote:

OK, PAX. Why bring someone?

As you have said yourself, different people like different things. If you like to travel, then certainly you will want to bring someone.

For me, the major reason I have very little interest in UL is that the weight limits make traveling with someone (your wife, maybe) impractical unless you are both quite small persons.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden
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