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How about this Trinidad?

I don’t think “known ice” is anything but an American certification level and is meaningless unless you define what “known” means.

If you don’t define what “known” means, you cannot prosecute the pilot for departing into “known ice” because you can’t define how he should have known about it!

The definition of “known” must include a description of how you are supposed to have “known” it, which means defining specific weather data i.e. specific weather services.

Gosh this sounds like Donald Rumsfeld (except he knew what he was talking about).

And these weather services don’t exist here in Europe!

So you can have a plane over here (i.e. not N-reg) which is permitted to fly in icing conditions, and the AFMS for the ice protection system will define how much ice etc is permitted, and if you get more than that, you are supposed to get out of there.

Even for an N-reg, “known icing” has no meaning once outside the USA because the US weather services (well those that could possibly be referenced in a “known ice” definition) don’t cover areas outside the USA…….

Before aviation discussion moved to the www, this topic occupied 55.3% of the entire internet bandwidth, via traffic on rec.aviation.ifr alone

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Looks like you were responsible for 52% of that traffic :-)

Well, AFAIK there’s enough methods today to forecast icing conditions, even in Europe. I know (you don’t have to repeat it) that it’s hard to forecast ice precisely. But icing conditions in general are known.

I don’t care about the “regulations” or “prosecution” so much. But i am sure that a FIKI plane will be safer in icing conditions. That’s what I wanted to say.

Last Edited by Flyer59 at 18 Nov 20:31

But icing conditions in general are known.

Not really….

IMC below 0C, sure, but then you shut down most of non-deiced GA in the winter, and almost all of non-deiced GA at Eurocontrol IFR levels all year round.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

AFAIK there is not FIKI version of the TB20

but the equipment (I only know about the Cirrus, sorry) is very different for “Known Ice”: Windsheld sprayers, deicing of the vertical stabilzer are exaples

Yes, there is. I flew one (SE reg) in the 1990’s. According to the POH it was approved for “flight into known icing conditions”. It did have windshield sprayers etc.
I did use the deice system in actual icing conditions.

It also had Stormscope. A very nice aircraft.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 18 Nov 21:30
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

My TB20 (the one I’m selling) is approved for “flight into known icing conditions” and it’s on EASA reg – full airframe TKS: wings, tail, prop and windshield.

Last Edited by Emir at 19 Nov 15:59
LDZA LDVA, Croatia

I had this long debate on some other forum that for the price of a new Beech/Cirrus/TTX/Piper, you could buy any piston twin and have enough fuel to fly for 72 years (on an average of 150hrs a year). This was in the US, so maybe in Europe it would be a little less, maybe closer to 50 years. But I get it – if you want that new plane smell, you want that new plane smell. But it makes very little financial sense.

This has always been true, not only for airplanes, but also cars, boats, etc. Owning “new” is a luxury. While there are some savings in maintenance, these never fully compensate for the higher acquisition and insurance costs. One simply has to pay for the pleasure and convenience of having something that is new. That is also why all these comparisons between newer and older aircraft are possible only up to a certain point.

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

It’s a little different though if you buy a 6 or 7 year old Cirrus. It cost € 200.000 and flies 170 ktas with a fuel flow of 12-13 GPH. And then you should look at the difference maintance cost – and the difference in avionics AND safety.

There’s other statistics too: Like that more pilots get killed in twins after engine failure than in singles, and that an engine failure in a twin is twice as likely to happen!

You just select the statistic that suits you! ;-) That’s how it works!

Last Edited by Flyer59 at 19 Nov 16:37

But it makes very little financial sense.

I think that applies to all of flying….

EGTK Oxford
But I get it – if you want that new plane smell, you want that new plane smell. But it makes very little financial sense.

Said the man who just bought an ancient twin turboprop

EGTR
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