Frans wrote:
TRAs are however blue and therefore not such an eye-catcher in Skydemon
I have them in red in Skydemon, it’s a question of how to setup the colors 
The pilot may not be a German one, familiar with some German CAA/ DFS website. If carrying out a flight in accordance with normal international practice, one is entitled to receive information from ATC.
In this case, ATC could have said that a transit is impossible, rather than sounding (as so often happens, in various countries) like it is possible, perhaps, and “check with the next sector” (the usual phraseology in France, where some ATC sectors really really do not like to coordinate with the military). It is like here and subsequent posts 
boscomantico wrote:
as you have seen in our case flying towards Denmark, even if you are IFR, ATC will usually not offer any clearance into active TRAs. This is despite the term TRA actually meaning that clearances by civil ATC ARE possible. But ATC planners never really cared about the exact definitions of these types of “restricted” areas.Yes, you’re absolutely right. I thought about our flight during this “adventure” as well. You even had filed a Eurocontrol valid IFR-plan and we had still to deviate quite far from our original planned routing. It seems to be that every country has its own definition of “TRA” and Germany seems to use it more or less like a “prohibited area”, where a ATC clearance isn’t possible, although most other countries deal completely different with active TRAs.
So, harshly phrased, it appears you missed to check the airspace status and putting the blame onto FIS instead of onto yourself?Of course I made a mistake for not taking the TRA airspaces too seriously. I hope that this was clear from my above described experience with the “Ups…” and posting it in this subforum “I learned flying from…”. However, if you fly through several countries, it is not always clear how each country deals with such kind of “temporary reserved areas” and AIPs might be sometimes quite cryptic, out of date or you need to check a separate military AIP for these kind of stuff (which is confusing). Did you also take a look on Denmark? The country is full of TRAs, so a normal VFR route planning wouldn’t be possible. So how to deal with that? Exactly, ask ATC for a clearance and the Danish ATC is happy to help you out. They even do it for you automatically when joining them on the frequency, with something like: “Radar contact, be advised, military traffic is active in your area, you may continue on FLxx”.
And we have few TRAs only. (…) I handle it the other way round. I plan my flights such that I assume that all TRAs are in fact active, which is typically not a big issue in Germany.I thought that as well, but after checking out all TRAs, flying above FL80 might get very difficult in the northern and western parts. It means that you can’t fly above FL80 during weekdays on a normal routing towards Denmark, except when you plan your flight precisely between the activation times. And that is not sufficient for a VFR pilot how is quite dependent on the weather.
But I think the information you got from FIS was quite good, even stating that you may cross the TRA until a specific time. (…) I, too, had the experience to have some “bored” person (it’s not a controller) speaking on FIS up in the North, not so further in the South. And no, it’s not their responsibility to keep you out of controlled airspace, although I often get information about airspaces without asking, if there is a possibility that I might bust one.Of course we all should know that FIS is not responsible for you
, but I think a pilot might expect some kind of decent FIS-service. If I compare Germany with Scandinavian countries, or with many Central European countries (PL, CZ, AT, SK etc.), the service of Langen Information is not “top-notch”. But it might be a lot better than the UK though. In addition, I experienced many times that some FIS-specialists try to be funny on the frequency (especially often in the NRW-sector), which is absolutely not professional. Therefore, I’m starting more and more to dislike Langen Information. Don’t get me wrong: German ATC is normally very good and I do like them a lot, I’m just often not happy with FIS.The pilot may not be a German one, familiar with some German CAA/ DFS website. If carrying out a flight in accordance with normal international practice, one is entitled to receive information from ATC.Absolutely my opinion as well. Unfortunately, it is not the case and if we bust some kind of airspace, I’m as PIC responsible for all consequences. It would already be a great help if entire Europe would use the same tools and airspace definitions, plus some kind of joined-up ATC services for VFR traffic internationally. But the fact is, that every country wants to reinvent the wheel and most countries have their own “booby traps”.
Frans wrote:
In addition, I experienced many times that some FIS-specialists try to be funny on the frequency
Matching my own experience, too. Whenever flying to the northern islands in Germany or up north, the FIS gets different, don’t know the reason, and making jokes, too. However, I have countless experiences where FIS (central and south Germany) was a real big aid to me, including announcement of possible airspace infringements ahead, so that in general I am quite satisfied about the service they’re providing.
Of course I made a mistake for not taking the TRA airspaces too seriously. I hope that this was clear from my above described experience with the “Ups…” and posting it in this subforum “I learned flying from…”.
My comment was rather meant as not putting blame on German FIS in general. I mostly have positive experience with them as being very helpful. But admittedly, in comparison to e.g. France there are clearly huge differences: Recently I flew in France during the week and was approaching an active restricted airspace. French FIS just told me to continue flying as he will provide vectors so I can cross that restricted airspace but remaining outside from the military activity. I guess that would hardly happen in Germany.
Maybe I’m just overly allergic about the question whether some airspace is active as, on a nice flying day, poor FIS typically gets bombarded in a 1-minute cycle about the status of basically always the same airspaces. So it seems a lot of pilots either can’t hear (as their question got answered a couple of times within some minutes before) or can’t read (as airspace use plans are publicly available either by AIP, websites such as the DFS page above, or Google).
However, fully agreed it would be helpful if there would be one central source.
Frans wrote:
You even had filed a Eurocontrol valid IFR-plan and we had still to deviate quite far from our original planned routing
I am also surprised how far ATC will deviate your from your route on IFR due to lack of controlled airspace, military zones or lack of some ATC units en-route, in France, it’s the other way around, you could get shortcuts by asking to go uncontrolled IFR or cancel and go VFR, then ask for yourself !
Apparently, some ATC/FIS have zero patience to deal with prop-up requests from VFR to deviate from weather by getting into airspace or request from IFR looking for shortcuts to save fuel by nipping restricted airspace, it’s just not their problem, this is more valid in “military airspace” where “civilian controllers” think you will get shot by mistake or run over by Mach2 fastjet, or eaten alive by gliders and will prefer to treat those places as “prohibited airspace”
Any flight with limited aircraft capability and/or pilot rating will have has to be planned in a pessimist fashion with enough fuel and backup plan if ATC/FIS are not helpful, any help from ATC/FIS while flying is a bonus, but as things stand it’s always PIC responsibility to put load of fuel for a detour and avoid traffic, airspace, weather and terrain…
UdoR wrote:
However, I have countless experiences where FIS (central and south Germany) was a real big aid to me, including announcement of possible airspace infringements ahead, so that in general I am quite satisfied about the service they’re providing.To be fair, you’re absolutely right on the idea that FIS is different in southern Germany. Even though the German FIS is now centralized in Langen, the FIS-specialists seem to continue working for their own previous sectors. Nonetheless, I had also some negative experiences in the south, where some frequencies closed during busy days, due lack of personnel, which was the case around 2018 and 2019. That issue might be resolved now. Maybe it’s me, but I do like a French or Scandinavian system more, where FIS and ATC is in one hand and clearances for controlled airspace can be given automatically during the flight. The entire atmosphere is more professional as well.
French FIS just told me to continue flying as he will provide vectors so I can cross that restricted airspace but remaining outside from the military activity. I guess that would hardly happen in Germany.Exactly that is the whole point. Every country deals with military areas differently. While in France, Denmark and many other countries, ATC might clear you through active military airspace, it seems not the case in Germany. I had in France once a same kind of experience, where fighter jets passed +/- 2.000 ft below me at a very high speed. At this time, I was cleared through an active LF-R on a certain altitude. It’s quite sad that this isn’t possible in Germany.
Frans wrote:
The lady was annoyed about my request and said in an unfriendly manner “I have to ask” and didn’t respond for a few minutes. Now, what to do? I decided to make an orbit at the border and descend below FL80, before continuing on course towards Bremerhaven.
Using Langen very frequently, I’ve not come across them as anything less than helpful and to this extent, I’d like to examine your critique points individually.
1) Her response “I have to ask” is simply the truth – she needs to check. You might perceive her being annoyed, but that’s all it is. Your perception.
2) Continuing on with that – first you claim she’s “bored” then claims she’s “annoyed” – I don’t know about you, but if I’m bored and someone gave me a task to help my working day pass quicker – ie, check the status of TRA201, I’d not be annoyed but happy you’d given me something to do. Somehow those two points don’t tally.
3) You claim German controllers will not warn you about airspace – I can confirm that if you’re heading towards (e.g.) Charlie Airspace, then they will contact you, asking what your intentions are regarding the Airspace Charlie ahead. I’ve heard them say that repeatedly (although not to me, of course). The question is about TRAs – I don’t know, because most times I’ve been flying, pilots typically ask in advance with sufficient time to take an alternative routing around the area. Perhaps a controller here will be able to advise whether their screens even display TRAs?
4) You said she didn’t warn you about “no further traffic” – what benefit will that give you? It could lull you into a false sense of security, thinking there’s nothing out there. What if there was traffic, off to your right but currently no factor? Or off to the left? Should she warn you of that? No, Langen never do that. They will only warn you when traffic could be a factor Expecting to be told “no further traffic” is not beneficial, unless you’re the only aircraft within the sector that they are controlling, which I would doubt, given the size of the sector they are controlling. In any case, 30 seconds after you receiving that report, the situation could change, so what benefit such a statement?
5) You claim she took “minutes” to respond leaving you with a decision to make and then fly an orbit – I’m sorry, pre flight planning means knowing where you will be flying and checking the status of the TRAs in advance of arriving there. For you to have left it so late and needing to orbit is not a failure on the side of the controller, I’m afraid. Typically I will brief my route, checking for the activity before flying and just confirm with Langen when in the air – and even then, 10 minutes in advance.
5) If she’s told it becomes active in XX minutes and tells you thus, that’s it, she CANNOT allow you to be airborne in it when it’s active. Your choices at that point are to fly around it or potentially over/under it, depending on which TRA you’re talking about.
6) If you wonder why you contacted Langen and expected them to provide you a clearance into a TRA – which they can’t – and still believe Langen Information is bad, fly to UK. You have no joined up radar supported FIS available, the only option is some LARS providers who, in the case of Bristol Hypergalactic Airport – when they provided LARS that is – would tell you “Basic Service due to Operator Workload” and, in case you didn’t know it, a Basic Service is about as much use as a chocolate teapot. Worse, you could request a transit through their airspace, which was much more reasonable a request to make than asking for TRA access, but they would deny it, again, due to “Operator workload”. Please fly there, then come back and report.
Or you could fly in Lower Saxony on a sunny weekend, Saturday morning or Sunday afternoon, when the whole of German GA seems to be heading north towards the Islands and south returning from them, then you’ll see what a job, what service these people provide. Please don’t trash them because I’ve never heard them being anything other than professional and helpful.
Steve6443 wrote:
Her response “I have to ask” is simply the truth – she needs to check. You might perceive her being annoyed, but that’s all it is. Your perception.It was not the words “I have to ask” what I disliked, it was the way of saying it. The lady sounded in general unfriendly, uninterested, annoyed or whatever on the other side of the mic. This already started with the initial call, which makes the rest of the conversation uncomfortable.
The question is about TRAs – I don’t know, because most times I’ve been flying, pilots typically ask in advance with sufficient time to take an alternative routing around the area.That is not possible when you come from Denmark, as the TRA covers the entire border region, so either you’re flying below FL80 or you cannot proceed into Germany. When you depart out of Esbjerg, you need to go through several ATS-units in a short amount of time, especially when proceeding through CAS. First Esbjerg AFIS, than Billund APP, than Skrydstrup APP and you’re already at the border. For sure I could have asked one of those stations if German TRAs are active, but it will take them way more time to verify, compared to Langen, how should directly be next to the “source”.
You said she didn’t warn you about “no further traffic” – what benefit will that give you? (…) In any case, 30 seconds after you receiving that report, the situation could change, so what benefit such a statement?At lot, so you know that there isn’t any reported traffic on your way for the next couple of minutes. For sure some un reported traffic could still be on my way, but at least I know, that the radar screen of the controller doesn’t report any possible traffic. In addition, I fly now with a Stratux on board, so I see the ADS-B, Mode S, and Flarm traffic also by myself.
Typically I will brief my route, checking for the activity before flying and just confirm with Langen when in the air – and even then, 10 minutes in advance.I’m sure you will never make a mistake by overseeing some kind of airspace.
If she’s told it becomes active in XX minutes and tells you thus, that’s it, she CANNOT allow you to be airborne in it when it’s active.But FISOs can call the military for coordination, give another frequency (to contact military ATC) or whatever. Such things are very normal abroad, but apparently not in Germany, where active TRAs seem to be handled like “prohibited” airspace. Think for example of France and it’s partly chaotic restricted airspaces, where you have not so many options to circumnavigate. But you can get at least a clearance from the appropriate ATC-unit.
If you wonder why you contacted Langen and expected them to provide you a clearance into a TRA – which they can’t – and still believe Langen Information is bad, fly to UK.I’m sure the UK is very special, we can all enjoy many interesting stories here on EuroGA.
Nonetheless, many neighboring countries of Germany do it better in my opinion.Or you could fly in Lower Saxony on a sunny weekend, Saturday morning or Sunday afternoon, when the whole of German GA seems to be heading north towards the Islands and south returning from them, then you’ll see what a job, what service these people provide. Please don’t trash them because I’ve never heard them being anything other than professional and helpful.On a busy weekend day, where everybody is flying northbound towards the islands, you can mostly forget Langen Info in my opinion (at least in the northern sectors). They’re just busy with pilots joining the frequency and others leaving the frequency. Traffic information and coordination through CAS is very limited available during those days. Of course, this is not the fault of the individual FISO, but more a general problem of the DFS, as the FIS-sectors are too big. Even our sector has become quite large since the latest changes, so we even have busy days during the week now.
Frans wrote:
not in Germany, where active TRAs seem to be handled like “prohibited” airspace.
From AIP-Germany it is clear that clearances through an active TRA will be only given to IFR traffic and then only if there are pre-agreed coordination procedures. Whether or not you think that’s reasonable, that’s the situation, documented in the AIP. What would be the point of Langen FIS trying to coordinate or handing you over to a military controller when from the outset it is clear that the answer will be “no”?
