roznet wrote:
if you then decide to enter controlled airspace anyway it would be clear you did something against ATC instruction.
This is the bit that I don’t understand. As a foreign IFR pilot (not me!) flying into the UK for the first time and getting confronted with this, your first reaction is probably, as you say, to argue. But if you don’t get your clearance back and left with a “Remain outside controlled airspace”, I think your next question is likely to be “How do I know where controlled airspace is?” Because you’re not likely to have any maps onboard which will show where controlled airspace is. You might have a low level airways map on board, but unless you regularly fly VFR or use one of the apps, you probably won’t have anything showing where controlled airspace is. Even using one of the app is probably not going to be easy if you always fly IFR.
So what are you supposed to do? Perhaps the current ATC would vector you to the edge of their controlled airspace, but you’ll probably quickly come up against non-radar units.
Declare a Mayday?
If you loose comm in uncontrolled airspace?
You should be able to land on a field in uncontrolled airspace. I don’t know if loosing comm gives you the right to enter CAS unless you declare an emergency?
Now if you loose comm in the scenario above where you expected to remain in CAS but you didn’t (because flight plan too low or with wrong point like my case) you are in uncontrolled airspace so probably best to stay there and land without re entering.
This are just my thought and how I think I would handle it, but maybe the actual rule is different? Let me know!
So what are you supposed to do?
I don’t know but I think you are supposed to have required maps and navigation information. It would be a pain because even with moving maps, the airspace around London is complicated enough that I would not fancy planning the way to avoid it in the plane, under pressure if this was new to me…
So thinking loud, one could :
- enter a hold and ask London for a clearance while waiting. I have done that once when I was told they could not find my flight plan, and would work on a clearance (which I got eventually after insisting)
- ask for help, and frequency of a radar unit that could guide you.
As I mentioned in my case, as I had appeared confused and questioned the situation, London info was unusually proactive and helpful
roznet wrote:
You should be able to land on a field in uncontrolled airspace.
But that’s not at all what the rules say. The rules say that unless you can maintain VMC then you should stick to your flight plan. There is no mention of controlled or uncontrolled airspace or even clearances.
I don’t know if loosing comm gives you the right to enter CAS unless you declare an emergency?
You mean setting the transponder to 7700? I don’t see that it will make it any easier to ATC if you set 7700 rather than 7600.
> So I’d continue my flight as initially cleared (because that’s what a clearance including a clearance limit is there for)
I have not flown IFR in the UK (and won’t soon, because BIR) but from the above posts, a big issue is precisely the question of a clearance limit not being explicit. Which again would cause surprise to anyone accustomed to receiving the destination as a clearance limit….
hmng wrote:
a big issue is precisely the question of a clearance limit not being explicit
I often get clearance limits that are not the destination, because I often depart and arrive VFR.
But still when I file IFR to a small place in, say, France, I get the clearance until the airfield. I imagine if I filed IFR (in particular not a Zulu plan) to a field in GB I’d also be cleared to destination.
Anyway, what about stating “unable” to ATC in that case? It’s the most honest thing one could reply.
That DC phraseology is just a ritual, for the airline business.
But if you rely on it, they can’t bust you in any country with a respectable justice system.
Peter wrote:
That DC phraseology is just a ritual, for the airline business.
Actually, there are rules for when it can be used, which is when coordination with subsequent ATC units is expected.
Do you have a reference?
I ve had it many times when coordination was clearly impossible.
Peter wrote:
Do you have a reference?
ICAO Annex 11:
3.7.4 Coordination of clearances
An air traffic control clearance shall be coordinated between air traffic control units to cover the entire route of an aircraft or a specified portion thereof as follows.
3.7.4.1 An aircraft shall be cleared for the entire route to the aerodrome of first intended landing:
a) when it has been possible, prior to departure, to coordinate the clearance between all the units under whose control the aircraft will come; or
b) when there is reasonable assurance that prior coordination will be effected between those units under whose control the aircraft will subsequently come.
Note.— Where a clearance is issued covering the initial part of the flight solely as a means of expediting departing traffic, the succeeding en-route clearance will be as specified above even though the aerodrome of first intended landing is under the jurisdiction of an area control centre other than the one issuing the en-route clearance.
3.7.4.2 When coordination as in 3.7.4.1 has not been achieved or is not anticipated, the aircraft shall be cleared only to that point where coordination is reasonably assured; prior to reaching such point, or at such point, the aircraft shall receive further clearance, holding instructions being issued as appropriate.
3.7.4.2.1 When prescribed by the appropriate ATS authority, aircraft shall contact a downstream air traffic control unit, for the purpose of receiving a downstream clearance prior to the transfer of control point.
3.7.4.2.1.1 Aircraft shall maintain the necessary two-way communication with the current air traffic control unit whilst obtaining a downstream clearance.
3.7.4.2.1.2 A clearance issued as a downstream clearance shall be clearly identifiable as such to the pilot.
3.7.4.2.1.3 Unless coordinated, downstream clearances shall not affect the aircraft’s original flight profile in any airspace, other than that of the air traffic control unit responsible for the delivery of the downstream clearance.
Note.— Requirements relating to the application of downstream clearance delivery service are specified in Annex 10, Volume II. Guidance material is contained in the Manual of Air Traffic Services Data Link Applications (Doc 9694).
3.7.4.2.1.4 Recommendation. — Where practicable, and where data link communications are used to facilitate down- stream clearance delivery, two-way voice communications between the pilot and the air traffic control unit providing the downstream clearance should be available.
