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Icing for General Aviation Pilots (Video)

So no one else is allowed to?

Do what you want, I’m a “Live and let live” kinda guy.

But the second you go and publicly post it, then we are all entitled to share our opinions on the act.

I own a Cessna Centurion, my second. As Gene mentioned, the fact that the ice was accumulating so far back on the underside of the wing tells us the wing was getting very close to stalling. BTW: Gene’s owned his Centurion for over 25 years, with and without TKS.

Worse was the ice on the H stab – it could have quite flying at any minute.

I can only wonder if the ice would have dissipated while descending in the short time that the plane spun into the ground

Last Edited by Michael at 05 Jan 08:28
FAA A&P/IA
LFPN

Firstly, may I suggest that while it is fine to express your personal view on what “you” would do in a given set of actual or proposed circumstances, can we please refrain from criticising the personal attitude to risk of the person who posted about their experience.

This has happened in the past; quite recently in fact. A criticism based on a poster’s presumed lack of experience (incorrectly presumed as it happened, which is another reason one needs to be careful criticising people) resulted in the poster pulling their posting which was otherwise a really good contribution to the forum.

When it comes to icing, it’s not that clear cut. A plane which performs in a certain way at say 80kt will need to fly at say 100kt with X amount of ice, but if you are flying at 100kt then you are safe. Planes don’t just plummet because they have some ice on them. Well, some “plastic planes” have almost no margin, but this isn’t one of them.

I often get criticised and/or corrected here, which is good because I am far from always right, but if somebody criticised me for flying with 10mm of ice on the leading edges, I would respond that actually I have been up to 30mm and the performance was degraded by X [with some detail given]. But I am not going to suffix every post of mine on the topic of icing with the details of the “30mm incident” and how I got out of it and what I learnt from it.

I would be very surprised if the movie the original poster did was of his worst ice encounter. Much more likely he has seen worse and knows his aircraft.

BTW if you want to pick something apart, this famous tour de force is a good starting point.

The reason for this post is that I want to avoid things which have trashed just about every other pilot forum in Europe.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

@Michael you are right, I did a lot of mistakes, all explainend in the Video. And yes it is safer not to fly. Every person like a different do and don´t list and that ist ok. A lot of Pilots say “I don´t won´t this” (me too) and that is perfekt, because now she know about it. Also a lot of Pilots have encountert the same situation (or worse) with no documentation and they think later “it was not so bad” (never trust your memoriers). The Video is alway a “true” anwser to that what really happend.

But you are wrong, the ice under the wing starts to develop much earlier than the nose goes up a singel 1° and the AC was 20-30 IAS away from a “stall”. Clean the 210 stalls at under 30 IAS and at high pitch up. With 3.5° (1.0° ist normal) and straigt and level with over 100 IAS it was ok. Downdrafts over the mountains bring me much closer to a stall in summer. Also I was not at “max Power”. All together I don´t won´t this again and it comes much worster than I aspekt, I´m guilty for this.

And it is a “non-turbo” AC.

EDAZ

The video is a bit controversal as it displays a flight into icing conditions with a non-FIKI aircraft. But any IR pilot that flies regularly in Europe on airways will encouter icing sooner or later, and you need to be able to handle the risk. Therefore this video offers a good demonstration on how icing accumulates, and it shows a bail out plan.

Aircraft performance while picking up ice is not in the PoH, yet these details are very useful for decision making when encountering icing conditions. A modern plastic wing (DA40/SR20/etc) is much more prone to icing conditions than a traditional wing shape like the (PA28/C172/etc). Yet the only way to find this out is by either trying it yourself, or reading it on the internet ;)
This video is a great example on how icing accumulates, how much ice a C182 can carry while still being fully controllable, and how to escape the icing conditions.

Knowing how your aircraft handles in icing conditions is IMHO a necessary skill for the IR rated pilot.

Last Edited by lenthamen at 05 Jan 13:23

The video is a bit controversal as it displays a flight into icing conditions with a non-FIKI aircraft.

That cannot be avoided unless one avoids all flight in IMC below 0C. What matters is the exit plan for when the ice gets too bad.

The “FIKI” legality issue is meaningful only in the USA because it is the context of US weather services and PIREPs (both of which exist only in the USA). IMHO, “known ice” in the FAA-legal sense doesn’t exist in Europe.

The FAA did adopt the “known ice = any IMC below 0C” definition some years ago but there was an uproar (for obvious reasons – it made IFR GA almost useless) and they backed away.

Knowing how your aircraft handles in icing conditions is IMHO a necessary skill for the IR rated pilot.

Totally correct.

Incidentally there have been many videos online showing flight in icing in a non-FIKI aircraft in the USA and nobody ever got prosecuted for it. I think it is difficult to do so because you cannot prove the truth (if the pilot says he just made it up) and you cannot normally prove the time and the place. Unlike a still photo, a video doesn’t contain GPS data.

Here in the UK, you could not convict a burglar with just a video even if he stood up looking into the camera and read out his name and held up his passport and held up the stolen goods and admitted stealing them, unless the video was made by an independent 3rd party and was handled solely via a secure process thereafter. I know somebody who tried this recently and failed (vandalism). Basically you have to rent a private detective to do the video.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

@Cheshunt

First off and foremost, as I posted earlier: Thank-you for taking the time and sharing this very educational video, I appreciate it and I’m sure many other pilots will to.

That said, I disagree with : "…the AC was 20-30 IAS away from a “stall”. " How do YOU KNOW that ? You have no idea what the “new” stall speed was.

IMHO, your empennage was very close to stalling, but the point is YOU DON’T KNOW because you’ve gone and messed up the aerodynamics of the wing and empennage !

“.. Clean the 210 stalls at under 30 IAS and at high pitch up ..” Not ANY of the Centurions I’ve owned or flown. But again, all of that is strictly worthless when you start to EXPERIMENT with the aerodynamics of the wing !

" Downdrafts over the mountains bring me much closer to a stall in summer." Maybe, but that’s with a CLEAN wing and empennage – you have NO IDEA what the stall speed was for either the wing or the empennage with all that ice.

All I can add is: You are a much bolder pilot than I .

edit: PS – Next time you ice up try pulling the throttle back and/or do some steep turns and let us know what the “new” stall speed is.

Last Edited by Michael at 05 Jan 15:56
FAA A&P/IA
LFPN

Indeed, knowing how your aircraft handles with ice on it is a neccesary skill for an IFR pilot.

Even if you have an aircraft with boots. Cheshunt commented rightfully in his video that boots would hardly have helped when the ice was accumulating behind the leading edges. Aren’t boots then even aggravating the situation by creating a nasty edge between the ‘clean’ leading edge and the rest of the wing, or is that an old-wives tale?

Same if you have an aircraft with TKS. That is an anti-ice and not a de-ice system, so you have to make sure that the aircraft is wetted with the fluid before you accumulate ice. I know a fellow DA42 who got caught by surprise and was too late to get rid of the ice. All ended well, he was able to get to warmer air, but it was a wake-up call.

So, thank you Cheshunt for posting this and adding to our knowledge.

Private field, Mallorca, Spain

knowing how your aircraft handles with ice on it is a neccesary skill for an IFR pilot.

So Aart, do you go out with your students and seek icing conditions and spend up to 20 minutes “just” to see what happens ?

Last Edited by Michael at 05 Jan 16:28
FAA A&P/IA
LFPN

How do YOU KNOW that ? You have no idea what the “new” stall speed was.

Agreed – and one may not even get an adequate warning, as the stall warner could easily freeze up as well.

LKBU (near Prague), Czech Republic

one may not even get an adequate warning, as the stall warner could easily freeze up as well.

The C210 stall warner is heated.

I don’t think Cheshunt was irresponsible or put himself in danger. One develops a feel for what level of icing the airplane can handle and based on my experience with the very similar 182, he was well in the green. I have not heard about sudden tailplane stalls with the 182/210.

My first PPL FI told me “if you enter clouds, you’re dead” and this complete and widespread nonsense does a lot of harm because instead of helping how to deal with a problem it defines it as non existing. Same goes for “icing is terrible, you need a FIKI aircraft for sub zero IMC”. If you fly IFR, you will encounter ice so you have to learn how to handle it. The most difficult decision when encountering icing is climb / turn around / descent. For this you need to know how your airplane performs with a certain amount of ice.

Having said that, I would most likely not have performed the flight the same way as Cheshunt. Either I would have cancelled it or changed my flight plath. My video would have been less educational and interesting

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