IFR Departure at a German AFIS airfield (Donaueschingen EDTD)

@chflyer: I would always file I if allowed by Eurocontrol and this should be the case for all fields that have procedures. E.g. at my former home field EDVE they had D(CTR) deactivated on the weekends and then they cleared you for the SID with IFR starting after passing 2000ft.

I had a similar experience to @Airborne_Again departing Schwabisch Hall EDTY after the SOP conference in February. It has an AFIS in class G airspace. I was headed to Switzerland and autorouter gave me and I filed the TAGIK 1Z SID (east wind, so departure on R10) heading off to the left/north and then west toward the Rhine and south over the Black Forest before coming back south east via TRA and ZUE north of Zurich… somewhat like a fish-hook routing.

On contact with AFIS, they gave me my IFR clearance, which was essentially “as filed” although they did read me the SID name. They told me to call when ready for departure for my “release”. Clearly they coordinated with ATC because when they released me they said to contact Langen Radar after departure (don’t recall if they indicated an altitude to do that). On contact with Langen Radar, I was told to continue on runway heading to 5’000 and then turn to HDG 200 (i.e. right turn south)…. so much for the SID and the autorouter routing !!! After 10 minutes on HDG 200 they cleared me dct VIBAX which was my IFR/VFR changeover about 10 miles from home, an hour away.

Lesson 1: File what is acceptable to Eurocontrol and then be ready for what you really get, and it might be after takeoff.
Lesson 2: Any airfield with a SID can be filed IFR from the start. No need for a Z FPL. It seems that in Germany AFIS are able to relay the initial IFR clearance and then coordinate release to departure with the overlaying ATC unit. Expect a freq to contact after departure.

Thread creep: Austria has some interesting RNAV SIDs that are visual to a point in space near the airfield (geo + altitude) at which point IFR starts. E.g. LOAN. I haven’t flown this, but would expect to file it as an I FPL even though the first leg is VFR and then IFR in class G airspace. On this departure, IFR starts at 1’400 but there is no radar service until 3’000.

TobiBS wrote:

The only thing I don’t know about is, whether AFIS needs a release from the controller and could therefore ask you to delay your departure, anybody ever experienced that?

I did my first departure from a German AFIS airport last week. (From Eggenfelden EDME.) I got the clearance relayed before starting to taxi. When entering the runway, the AFISO told me to “wait for release” and a short while later he told me I was released. He also made a general call on the info frequency: “Warning: IFR departure in progress.” :-)

…and since there is no TWR/Radar, the separation from other IFR traffic is by spacing in time, e.g. an expiring departure clearance, correct?

On the procedure yes, but I hope after issuing your clearance, the controller will also keep the area around the procedure clear of IFR until he positively identified you.

Makes me wonder if and when I should use synthetic vision as a “double check”. Aircraft has it, but my CFII was of the opinion that it is just a distraction, and basically would only be useful for emergencies. Number one priority is of course monitoring that the FD/AP flies the SID according to the specs.

From my perspective using equipment only in emergencies is fine, if you train for these emergencies on a regular basis. Because if you just wait for a day when you need it, then it will be of no practical use, but a distraction in the emergency. I just recently started to fly an aircraft with synthetic vision and infrared and I used it on all my flights so far (daylight VMC) to get a feeling how to interpret the information. I of course agree with the concept of information overload, but technology that is never used typically doesn’t help in an emergency, I think.

Agreed, however that is a theoretical issue as there is normally no concept of out of hours in Germany. But even if you can contact the approach or enroute radar controller, Germany does not clear you IFR below the MVA which is 500ft above the base on controlled airspace (discussed in other posts) unless on a published IFR procedure.

If you depart with an IFR clerance ready you just fly it untill it expires or you get your RT contact (same as when changing to next frequency)

I was refering to the case where you depart without any IFR clerance (say no AFIS/ATC or out of hours and you are in class G anyway) hoping to get one once airborn, on that airspace structure it will be tricky, especially if it is IMC bellow 5000ft or IMC bellow 1000ft depending if you depart VFR or IFR…

Ibra wrote:

That airspace shape is more bonker than you think, if you have no class E IFR clearance before departure, you will be flying IMC bellow 1000ft which does not work as you need to be above your MSA to comply with IFR, so you can’t “just fly there IFR”, still you can depart, climb and stay at 1000ft pending on getting an airborne clearance

At 5000ft you should be speaking to the class E owner (assuming you did not speak to them before getting to 1000ft as you should, their assumption would be you were just VFR as you entered class E and now looking to switch IFR inside, in VMC it should not be an issue, in IMC it can’t happen )

It is not really bonkers and is actually very similar to a departure from a non-controlled airfield in the US. AFIS obtains and passes on the clearance from the relevant approach sector controller which means one is cleared to fly the SID and enter controlled airspace. Given radio coverage restrictions, the approach controller in this case is not contactable until passing 5,000ft. This does happen at different airports around the world and this is where the lost comm procedure comes in, i.e. fly your clearance and try to contact the approach frequency, otherwise switch back to the prior frequency and inform them. You were given a squawk and clearance on departure and the approach controller will have you on his/her scope.

Here is a similar situation with respect to radio coverage at Kassel-Calden which is a towered airport in this case:

One should note that even a tower controller (not too dissimilar from ATIS) normally has to coordinate with the approach controller and release aircraft for departure accordingly. Some towers will have a standing LOA with the approach controller but I have been to airports where the tower controller told me that he needed to coordinate the clearance with the approach sector and/or hold me for release before takeoff. Tower controllers strictly speaking have control only over their runway environment and relevant control zone, the non-CTR controlled airspace around it (whether it be A, B, C, D or E) is controlled by the approach controller.

HBadger wrote:

while I am not connected to ATC yet, how is Class E different from Class G?

You can’t get clearance to fly (IFR or VFR) in class G and you can’t fly IFR in class E without an IFR clearance (but you could get that without an RT contact)

HBadger wrote:

I just feels so strange to fly IFR IMC below 5000’ while not being connected to ATC yet.

That airspace shape is more bonker than you think, if you have no class E IFR clearance before departure, you will be flying IMC bellow 1000ft which does not work as you need to be above your MSA to comply with IFR, so you can’t “just fly there IFR”, still you can depart, climb and stay at 1000ft pending on getting an airborne clearance

At 5000ft you should be speaking to the class E owner (assuming you did not speak to them before getting to 1000ft as you should, their assumption would be you were just VFR as you entered class E and now looking to switch IFR inside, in VMC it should not be an issue, in IMC it can’t happen )