IFR outside airways in Italy

Is it correct that you don’t like over water?

Autorouter from LIQL Lucca to LICK Scalea and restrict to FL090 you get it via Elba, albeit all over water. LIQL Lucca to LIBN Lecce at FL90 goes across to the east coast and then sends you out over the water all the way down the east side. If you tell autorouter to avoid open water, then you can reduce the over water stretch quite a lot but the route is longer. That might be the best bet ….. file what autorouter gives you at FL90 and then try to negotiate short cuts. I’ve been quite successful getting directs across northern Italy through Aviano and Ronchi at 5’000.

@boscomantico might be able to help…..

In all honesty, I never had this “problem”. 80% of my flying in Italy was and is VFR. And when I fly/flew IFR, I never had a (significant) problem with the high MEAs, since

a) the freezing level is not normally a problem
b) the weather is usually good donw there, so no IMC anyway
c) the SR22 in particular very much likes cruising at FL100 (170KTAS at 13 GPH)
d) it takes only about 12 minutes to get there in the SR22

So, I really don’t know what will happen if you filed airway xy at FL100 and then request FL60 with ATC….
Yes, IFR in uncontrolled airspace is allowed there, but I just don’t know if and how it works in practice.

If you do need to fly this low, I would just file VFR and request VFR clearances for class D airspaces. ATC will not know your actual flight condition anyway…
And as I said, you will 99% be VMC anyway.

The only problem with that is that you will have to avoid the two Italien class A TMAs, but nowadays, they are much smaller than they used to be.

FL160 should allow you to cross the alps IFR. I flew from LIMA to EHGG not long ago and filed IFR (Z plan with immediate pick-up), crossing the alps at FL160 while oxygen is obviously needed, 160 was only required for a short bit.

My scariest icing incidents were in Italian airspace

One can cross the Alps at FL140 on this route but you still need oxygen. The only way to cross the Alps lower and anywhere near the main area is to go VFR and then you can go at FL110-120 like here. Need to be sure there is little or no wind, when so close to the terrain.

That is flying above the terrain. If you are ok flying through some canyons then there are lower routes. Some previous threads on that.

Whether you can do Eurocontrol routes which Italian ATC will play ball with, OCAS, I don’t know. They always forced me to climb to FL140 over the N Italian (and very flat) bit.

Talk was mostly about the flatlands, where, as Wolfang said, MEAs are high merely due to airspace design. not terrain. Talk was not about the Alps.

How hard are crossing clearances to come by in practice?

On class D airspaces, above say 3000 ft AGL, it is generally easy.

And what is your strategy to cross the Milan TMA which is class A and pretty large? Do you use the airways to get through them?

Again, if you look at it closely, it isn’t that ernourmous any longer. But yes, whenever I want to fly across the Milan area enroute from Germany to say Tuscany, or Corsica, I always file IFR, so that I can maintain my altitude. Sometimes, I will file IFR only for the bit from just south of the Alps (from Saronno to Voghera), and all the rest VFR. That means you can stay at FL110 all the time (both for the Alps crossing under VFR and for the Milan area crossing under IFR).

There just seem to be almost no direct airways to get from e.g. LIPB to the Torino area even irrespective of MEA but then the lateral boundaries of the Milan TMA (class A) still seem to be massive.

Yes, there are no low level airways airways across the very western parts of the Alps. The only way to fly IFR from Turin northbound is to to go all the way to Saronno first and then pick up the airway(s) to the Zürich area. Last time I flew from LIMA northbound, I just flew VFR. Let’s be honest, at FL150/160, in an SEP, you will defo want to stay VMC anyway, since any cloud at that level and location will either contain loads of ice or loads of convectivity. Or both.

Last time I was there, it was as simple as could be… came from Brenner, called Verona, got my clearance to cross, and was transferred right down to behind Florence where I ‘cancelled’ to continue to Chiusdino… ATC don’t know if you are IFR or VFR… don’t remember the exact flight level though.

What is the situation with Zurich allowing VFR traffic into its Class C?

When I used to fly down there VFR, that was the biggest issue, not getting through Italian airspace. So I was flying at FL129 across the Alps This is fine in nice wx and you get amazing photos but more than half the time you can’t do this because you would be in IMC and collecting ice.