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Impressions from Aero

LSA and ULM are completely different classes.

Perhaps we need to clarify: technically, planes from either class can be very similar, but legally they are in different universes.

You would need to be mad to go LSA on this basis

I quite agree – if ever I can afford more than the minimalist ultralight I will go for a proper PPL – but there’s a good reason to keep the LSA classification alive: it is the perfect answer to the many ultralight pilots (especially in Germany) clamouring for an increase in MTOW for ultralights.

EBZH Kiewit, Belgium

Jan_Olieslagers wrote:

it is the perfect answer to the many ultralight pilots (especially in Germany) clamouring for an increase in MTOW for ultralights.

As such a Microlight-pilot in need of more payload I would rather search an appropriate Experimental. More so, because you are used to the restrictions (e. g. VFR, entry permissions in some countries…) and the Rotax anyway. The only advantages from my point of view melt down to NVFR (at least for the Aquila) and easier border crossings for a few countries.

EDLE

“You mean other than Aquilla/Diamond and the numerous LSA?”

But none of which are more cost effective to operate than a Cessna 150/2 which means we will keep using the same old kit.

Last Edited by Bathman at 25 Apr 10:51

Michal wrote:

But I am not aware of any UL manufactures producing RTC/LSA/VLA in bigger numbers apart from Tecnam.

What do you mean with UL-manufacturers? Tecnam is a certified manufacturer with a POA, so is Aquilla and Diamond. They have sold a good share of Katanas. Furthermore, with a new market and those aircraft competing strongly against a very good used aircraft market, how many sales do you call “bigger numbers”? The heydays of thousands of C172s and PA28s are gone, but if it secures the living of a manufacturer and his employees, I think it’s good investment. Of course you’ll never know, but there are better selling and worse selling aircraft in any class.

Peter wrote:

You would need to be mad to go LSA on this basis, especially as nearly the whole point of the “homebuilt/ultralight” scene (in terms of cost savings) is owner maintenance and sourcing OEM etc parts.

I will read that article then, perhaps I can say more about this, afterwards. However, in contrast to the US, a European LSA is a complete certified aircraft and things between customers and manufacturers are different than in the US. Pilot licensing is, too, but that’s another topic.

Jan_Olieslagers wrote:

technically, planes from either class can be very similar, but legally they are in different universes.

Sometimes they are even technically, as the C42 (ULM) vs. AC4 (LSA) shows with basically the same structural/design concept. The LSA certification process has made it a considerable better and safer aircraft. And that shows the whole point of the distinction: An LSA is a certified aircraft, allowed to use in itself uncertified parts and certify these with the aircraft. The ULM is certified to a lesser degree, depending on the certifying nation, requiring a bigger trust of the pilot to the manufacturer / designer. This is a choice the pilot can make, but it should be clear by not merging ULM/LSA into one “soup of light aircraft” as one Aero attendee called it.

europaxs wrote:

The only advantages from my point of view melt down to NVFR (at least for the Aquila) and easier border crossings for a few countries.

The A210/A211 is a VLA, not an LSA.

Bathman wrote:

But none of which are more cost effective to operate than a Cessna 150/2 which means we will keep using the same old kit.

Of course. The field-maintainability of the “bread and butter Cessnas” is astonishing and the technical documentation is superb. It sees considerable less downtime compared to many LSA, when comparable malfunctions occur. To a new student pilot a well cared for C150 is as good as a new A210 or PS28 and a shagged C150 / Katana is not appealing to anyone. The C150 get’s the job done and that in itself will not change in further decades. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t other planes around.

mh
Aufwind GmbH
EKPB, Germany

mh wrote:

The A210/A211 is a VLA, not an LSA.

Of course you’re right – mixed that up.

EDLE

mh wrote:

What do you mean with UL-manufacturers?

most of them – if not all of them. Evektor with eurostar RTC, Aeropro with Dynamic RTC, Viper RTC, Flight Design RTC etc….

LKKU, LKTB

Well, Tomark just got the TC for their Viper at this years Aero (On Thursday at 10:00 to be precise). A bit early to dismiss their alleged lack of sales, isn’t it? And I haven’t found an EASA(LSA) TCDS for the Dynamic, but that may be my fault….

mh
Aufwind GmbH
EKPB, Germany

Dynamic is RTCed for while and they did promise to all customers to get LSA and don´t ask about status – did you notice their presence this year at Aero (there was none)….Viper was on the list because they´ll be following the same sales number as anybody else.
Don´t take it wrong, I am not making fun of these guys, I am sad …The already limited market is too segmented.Too many people come to the market (with clearly the best aircrarf)…and with 5-10 aircraft per year you can hardly achieve profitability….going RTC/LSA or even VLA or whatever is making another burden and fixed cost – like DOA, POA. Was bankrupted Flight design way too different from other, did they something obviously wrong?
But this has something to do with overall regulatory and legal structure and different word of UL and certified aircraft. There should be something with the good elements from the both worlds….

LKKU, LKTB

Michal wrote:

There should be something with the good elements from the both worlds….

Wasn’t that what the LSA concept tried to be?

(PS @Michal, what do you mean by RTC ?)

Last Edited by at 25 Apr 16:50
EBZH Kiewit, Belgium

Restricted type certificate. Don´t ask for details, originally was to be VLA with non-certified engine perhaps. So 912 in UL version, not 912 in the certified version. But this might had evolved over the time, I am not involved for some years, just learning bit and pieces when speaking to some people….

LKKU, LKTB
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