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Inaccessible STAR

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From Charleroi (EBCI) to Toussus le Noble (LFPN) with a small plane, autorouter finds a route at FL100 cruise level with a STAR called MATIX7W.
The said STAR requires to be at GITAN at FL140, it’s well documented in the AIP

less.

My small plane won’t probably be able to reach that level, and anyway I wouldn’t fly that high without Oxygen. In autorouter General Performance tab the Default maximum flight level is set at FL120.

I couldn’t find a flyable IFR route with autorouter.
Achim tells me that it’s no big deal to plan such a STAR even if I can’t fly it. I strongly disagree: I’m convinced that I may not file a flight plan I can’t fly. In practice would you do it, or have you done it? How would do find a flyable route?

Strongly disagree? :-)
Well, I agree with Achim here. STARs are not really used in practice. In 20 years of IFR flying, I have been
-told to expect some STAR maybe 10 times
-actually have been initially cleared for a STAR maybe 3 times
-have actually flown the STAR exactly as charted maybe 0 or 1 times…

Do you really think that if you arrive in their area at FL100, ready for descent, they will first ask you to climb to FL140 just for the SID?

What you could do of course is file a Y flightplan to avoid the SID, but that makes life complicated for everybody.

Last Edited by boscomantico at 14 May 11:59
Mainz (EDFZ), Germany

boscomantico wrote:

Well, I agree with Achim here. STARs are not really used in practice. In 20 years of IFR flying, I have been
-told to expect some STAR maybe 10 times
-actually have been initially cleared for a STAR maybe 3 times
-have actually flown the STAR exactly as charted maybe 0 or 1 times…

I could say the same for finding water in my fuel tanks, I have never found any water in decades, yet I continue sampling…
Although I cannot (yet) substantiate my opinion with a piece of legislation, I’m still convinced that a flight plan filed should be flyable by you, meaning you should be able to reach the altitude, to achieve the performance required, you should have enough fuel etc.

I do agree with Piotr_Szut, that you should be able to fly the filed routing. Imagine you are IMC and you have a complete radio failure. When not being able to reach someone you will finally following the procedure flying according the routing and reach the approach as close to the planed timing following STAR and approach.

This seems maybe strange because I do also agree with boscomantico, because in real live it is seldom that you have to follow the STAR. EDMA Augsburg, EDAZ Schönhagen, EDMS Straubing may be some exemptions, their I‘m usually cleared the RNAV or IlS approach following the STAR.

EDDS , Germany

3.3 Flight plans
3.3.1
__3.3.1.1 Information relative to an intended flight or portion of a flight, to be provided to air traffic services units, shall be in the form of a flight plan.__
3.6.2 Adherence to flight plan
__3.6.2.1 Except as provided for in 3.6.2.2 and 3.6.2.4, an aircraft shall adhere to the current flight plan or the applicable portion of a current flight plan submitted for a controlled flight unless a request for a change has been made and clearance obtained__

I don’t think it worth to argue on the subject that a flight plan is a plan you submit to the ATS and that once the ATS has accepted, you have to fly it unless otherwise instructed or cleared, even if in practice you will never fly it because ATS will amend it.
You can of course file a flight plan that you cannot fly, and probably nobody will take notice, as you can fly without a valid licence and probably you won’t be ramp checked etc. It’s a matter of personal choice, mine is to stick to the rules.

My point is how to file an IFR flight plan from EBCI to LFPN that won’t take me above FL100? I there a workaround with autorouter so that it keeps on searching an alternative routing that would be flyable?

Last Edited by Piotr_Szut at 14 May 15:39

Would the method depicted here work to provide you with a connection? It works in any airspace where DCTMAX is not set to zero.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

With FL100 max :
EBCI N0158F080 CIV4Y CIV Y50 GITAN/N0157F090 Y50 REM B3 DIKOL/N0157F100 B3 RLP RLP8T LFPN
Lot’s of extra miles but shortcuts are available when military areas are not active.
VEBEK5E initial approach needs to be flown at FL110 for ATS purposes.

Or I would rather do :
EBCI N0157F070 CIV4Y CIV Y50 MATIX MATIX1T LFP*T*

And then VFR or IFR pogo flight from LFPT to LFPN

boscomantico wrote:

Do you really think that if you arrive in their area at FL100, ready for descent, they will first ask you to climb to FL140 just for the SID?

(I think you mean for the STAR)

Paris is indeed the only place where I’ve been asked to climb above FL100 for the arrival.

Autorouter allows to choose a specific STAR. So it’s just a matter of locating a STAR you can fly which remains reasonably relevant to your flight and choosing it.

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