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New instructor questions

Hi there, newly-qualified instructor here. I don’t fully understand my privileges and I obviously don’t want to do anything illegal so I wonder if anyone can answer a few questions that I have please. Sorry if these have been answered elsewhere and many thanks to anyone who contributes.

  1. If I fly with a PPL or LAPL holder, can I log the time as ‘instruction’ (and PIC with the other pilot being PU/T) if we agree to this arrangement, despite me not providing training towards a specific qualification or endorsement?
  2. I have an ATPL and co-own a Part-21 aircraft which is on a self-declared maintenance programme. Can I ‘instruct’ a PPL or LAPL holder outside an ATO/DTO and have them pay for the fuel, effectively allowing me to acquire instructional hours at no direct cost?
  3. Can I count ‘instructional’ flight hours acquired through merely flying with PPL or LAPL holders towards the 100 hours requirement for becoming unrestricted or towards the 50 hours in three years requirement for FI revalidation?

Best regards to all.

United Kingdom

Welcome to EuroGA, AsICFIT

Point #1 is interesting, though not from the obvious angle…

I am sure it is 100% legal from the logging POV, even though it would be highly unusual simply because any owner, or renter, very much wants to log as PIC every flight he’s paying for

But: most insurance policies (perhaps all UK ones for owner-pilots) state that the owner is insured for receiving instruction. This of course means the instructor can’t fly the plane solo.

If you have agreed what you propose i.e. no instruction taking place, and evidence of it emerges post-accident, the flight won’t have been insured. It’s a bit like this (and various similar threads we have had). Survivors, or their families, do all kinds of weird things, including outright dishonest stuff, to get money.

Point #2 I don’t know. I do know the UK CAA does not allow SDMP for any “school” planes. It has been tried and refused. I believe @bathman posted on this recently. But freelance instruction?

Point #3 no idea. @MattL @tumbleweed @Qalupalik may know.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Hi and welcome

1 – yes there are a multitude of reasons for that such as currency checks for passenger carrying, differences training, general refresher training, ‘club checks’ etc.. however it must be instructional and not just flying with your mate for a burger. Also note if you are an FI(R) you must be operating under supervision at a DTO/ATO (unless you have also added a CRI..)

2 – many dodgy issues and basically no unless the person is also a part owner

3 – yes but you need to be doing specific exercises under your ATO/DTO supervising FI – see SRG1133R for details of what you need to record

Posts are personal views only.
Oxfordshire, United Kingdom

Thanks for the welcome and your helpful responses.

To check my understanding, if I have FCL.945 privileges as a restricted FI but no CRI, can I perform the one hour training flight for PPL-SEP or LAPL revalidation without being supervised by a ATO/DTO instructor? What would having CRI allow me to do that I can’t as a restricted FI who isn’t employed by a ATO/DTO?

United Kingdom

AsICFIT wrote:

To check my understanding, if I have FCL.945 privileges as a restricted FI but no CRI, can I perform the one hour training flight for PPL-SEP or LAPL revalidation without being supervised by a ATO/DTO instructor?

Yes. In fact, you can perform club checks, refresher training, and such without being supervised by an FI nominated by an ATO/DTO since it is outside of the scope of FCL.910.FI (a) (1-4).

The restrictions for FI(R) are stipulated in FCL.910.FI.

Last Edited by Dimme at 03 May 14:17
ESME, ESMS

MattL wrote:

Also note if you are an FI(R) you must be operating under supervision at a DTO/ATO

Where did you get this? Do you have a reference?

Last Edited by Dimme at 03 May 14:18
ESME, ESMS

@dimme I don’t how overseas NAAs interpret FCL910 differently but it is quite clear in the U.K. that an FI R must be supervised for all instruction unless they also hold a CRI

Last Edited by MattL at 03 May 15:59
Posts are personal views only.
Oxfordshire, United Kingdom

MattL wrote:

an FI R must be supervised for all instruction

The rule against surplusage disfavours such an interpretation of FCL.910.FI because it explicitly lists a subset of the FI privileges whose exercise requires supervision.

London, United Kingdom

I don’t fully understand my privileges

I find that quite astounding, part of the FI Course is to teach new instructors what thay can do. As an FIE I can ask the candidate questions about their privileges which I would expect them to know.
Well done for being honest, there is no such thing as a stupid question. I won’t ask where you were trained!

You can log as PIC all time when you are giving instruction, but if you are not giving instruction then you are a passenger

All instruction for a licence or rating must be given at an ATO or DTO except for differences training and the dual training for revalidation purposes however; as a FI(R) you need to be supervised, that rather limits you to a training Organisation unless you also hold a CRI certificate

Unless you are acting as an Instructor you cannot log the time as Flight Instruction. To remove the Restriction the biggest problem is getting 25 solo sign offs not the 100 hours.
The purpose of the restriction is to gain sufficient experience as an instructor teaching basic exercises so as to be able to judge when its safe to send a student solo. Any attempt to short circuit this process is both dangerous and likely to place you in a position of liability if your student were to kill themselves.
My advice is to go to a DTO or ATO and get some basic instruction under your belt where the supervising FI can teach you what your priviledges really are.You will probably enjoy it and learn more in that 100 hours than you have in any previous 100 hours.

Last Edited by Tumbleweed at 03 May 16:58

Thanks for the responses.

Tumbleweed wrote:

I find that quite astounding, part of the FI Course is to teach new instructors what thay can do. As an FIE I can ask the candidate questions about their privileges which I would expect them to know.

Fair enough but, with respect, the fact that there has already been disagreement within this thread suggests that the rules aren’t particularly clear and are therefore open to interpretation.

Dimme wrote:

Yes. In fact, you can perform club checks, refresher training, and such without being supervised by an FI nominated by an ATO/DTO since it is outside of the scope of FCL.910.FI (a) (1-4).

It would be nice if this were the case but I still don’t know if it is or not. It’s two against two on this thread which means that I’m more uncertain now than I was when I asked the question!

The fact that FCL.910.FI (a) (1-4) exists as a set of criteria begs the question, why does it not just say ‘all instruction’ if a restricted FI can’t do anything without being employed by an ATO or a DTO?

Tumbleweed wrote:

You will probably enjoy it and learn more in that 100 hours than you have in any previous 100 hours.

I understand your intention behind this remark, which I appreciate, but it is still a little bit patronising. I learned a lot during my first 100 hours in the left seat of a medium-range jet transport, for instance. I’m proud to now be an instructor and feel a sense of achievement in becoming one, but the broader aviation arena expands beyond the training/checking sphere.

United Kingdom
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