Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Welcome to our forums

Suitable aircraft for UPRT Instruction

Hallo fellow aviators

The ATO at which I’m employed, are finally launching a UPRT course, which I and a few other colleagues have been chosen to teach.
The school already has a sizable fleet of DA20-C1’s which are all utility category and are approved for spinning. They have thus decided that all training for the the UPRT will be done on our DA20’s.

I’ve been looking hard around to try and find other ATO’s who conduct Advanced UPRT training on non-aerobatic aircraft, and I simply can’t find any… so my question is, does any one here have experience in delivering UPRT training non-aerobatic aircraft? Are students really building the resilience they should, if you can’t take them past 60 degrees bank etc.? What are the safety margins – should you end up in a bodged recovery?

According to EASA’s AMC’s as seen below, it is up to the ATO to choose what type of aircraft they wish to use…in this case my ATO chose the cheapes…

EASA AMC for FCL.745
Aeroplanes used in this course should be:
(1) appropriately certified and operated by the ATO in a manner that takes into account the effects of repeated training manoeuvres on airframe fatigue life; and
(2) provide sufficient safety margins to cater for student and instructor errors.

EASA opinion 06.2017: “As aerobatic aircraft is not required for all exercises in the syllabus, EASA decided not to specifically mandate aerobatic aircraft to be used for the entire course. It will be up to the ATO to evaluate which aircraft will be used for which parts of the training”

Last Edited by J.O at 18 Sep 17:09

It could make sense to fly the first half of the UPRT course in a DA20, then switch to something agile. The cheapest solution for that purpose would be a former aerobatic aircraft that has been downgraded to non-aerobatic status because of old age – for example, an old Zlin 42.

LKBU (near Prague), Czech Republic

@JO interesting question, am not familiar with the DA20, but I believe there are good A-UPRT schools that use the semi aerobatic Grob 115.

Oxford (EGTK)

I did my A-UPRT on a Super Decathlon. I was mostly upside down 2 days and it was interesting to experience up to 6G. I did it purely to extend my perspective flying light airplanes. The instructor was very good, german air force pilot who flew F18 in the US for many years.

If your CAA allows the DA20, go for it and keep the exercises in check, so to say, instead of going full aerobatic ;).

A-UPRT is, on paper, not an aerobatic course. I guess the regulators had to define it that way to „sell“ this new mandatory course as suitable for future airline pilots so people would cough up another 3000 quid to throw at the ATOs.

While I don’t think it is detrimental, I also don’t think doing spins, stalls etc.. in a light aircraft ONCE will help much when flying large jets for the next decades afterwards.

Rather airline pilots should be exposed to more and ongoing training (and given more time to practice basic flying). Currently sim sessions are crammed so tightly that one is jumping from training item to training item every 8 minutes. That would, however, cost a lot of money, and airlines hate spending money, so the bill was pushed as far down as possible, to the self paying CPL/ATPL students…

One of the „Ok, let me show you something“ moments:

Last Edited by Snoopy at 18 Sep 18:31
Airline/Mentor/Safety/Instructor - Pilot
Based Austria | Operating Worldwide

I mean It would of course be possible to do sort of a “minimum effort” UPRT with a non aerobatic aircraft like the DA20 – never exceeding 60 degrees bank and staying within the prescribed +2.5/0G span of the syllabus, but from experience the airplane is not very easy to properly “upset” to the point where a student would have time to asses the situation and act on it, before the (very stable) aircraft has recovered by itself…the envelope is just too tiny.
There is no doubt the best option would be to get a semi or fully aerobatic aircraft for this stuff, but I’m just curious if anyone has more experience I could build that argument on. :) I have an Aerobatics rating as well and despite not being part of the syllabus, I can attest to the fact that spins and recovery from inverted flight can do wonders for “resilience building”.

Last Edited by J.O at 18 Sep 21:18

Cessna 150 aerobat

I recall when I came across the DA20 being used for a FI revalidation, the only way to spin the aircraft was for the student to get airborne and do an observed spin solo over the airfield as the aircraft was not capable of being spun with two crew on board!

I have found an exciting video:


@Tumbleweed, oh no the -C1 will spin just fine, did around 8 entries in it yesterday and always do it with FI students as well, although it does tend to spin rather nose low if you don’t stall it completely prior. Usually the trouble is making sure you don’t pull too hard in the recovery and don’t overspend the prop – using it form UPRT day in and day out, I could easily see this happening once in a while…

9 Posts
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top