No autopilot during a PPL test.
This is another topic done to death in years past, but
VOR nav has never been very viable for nav, due to not many of them around, and anyway if you look at the DOC (documented operational coverage) circle at your level… The official but unspoken backup for GPS loss is ATC radar.
Is the CAA policy limited to SD? Surely not! That would be a grossly unfair handout to SD. CAP3176 does not mention the name at all. Thread topic edited.
the US scene is superior because the PPL examiner is entitled on a demo of all installed kit (where applicable to the syllabus, obviously) so you get a PPL actually able to go places
You don’t in general need installed equipment to go places in the US, the airspace does not require it, so the examiners interest is in verifying that the pilot knows how to use what he has, regardless of what it may be. The pilot can and will then go places using what equipment he has.
My first aircraft had no electrical system, no transponder, battery powered handheld radio and (eventually) battery powered portable GPS. That didn’t stop me going anywhere in Class D or lower (i.e. anywhere I needed to go). I never did it but the plane was flown US coast to coast and back at least twice, pre-GPS with no VOR receiver. The radio on trips like this is mostly turned off to conserve power for whatever Class D may be ahead.
There is BTW no prescriptive syllabus for the FAA private certificate, there are instead minimum requirements for logged time and practical test standards.
Emir wrote:
What happened to basic knowledge of using VOR/DME at PPL level?There was a time when the sextant had been used for navigation. That’s probably not a skill the average aviator still posesses, either.
Inkognito wrote:
VOR/DME will go the way of the dodo – kicking and screaming maybe, but good riddance when it finally does.
Errr… VOR, possible. DME, not soon. Enroute DME is the airlines system backup for GPS failure. It will stay for the foreseeable future. GA and airlines equally need at least alternates with non-RNP approaches, if not non-RNP approaches at the destination. ILS+DME will also survive there for the foreseeable future, maybe at less airports than now, but at least a smattering over the distances that airlines need alternates.
Let’s face it, sometimes things have to die. VOR/DME will go the way of the dodo – kicking and screaming maybe, but good riddance when it finally does.
VOR, possible. DME, not soon. Enroute DME is the airlines system backup for GPS failure.
Ok. A question for both. Imagine the situation. You’re happily flying using GPS as a sole means of navigation. Suddenly spoofing attack moves your position 100 miles away, your ground speed goes crazy and you realize you can’t continue navigating this way. Will DME/DME help?
And the answer. Initially, no. If on A/P, of course, you have to switch to HDG mode. Then you have to switch off GPS, tune the nearest known VOR/DME to determine your approximate position and then let DME/DME make it more accurate. Why? Because DME/DME works based on list of known nearby DME stations which was initially corrupted by spoofing attack. And then you can go back to NAV mode on A/P. Airliners are facing this on a daily basis.
In GA world without DME/DME, after tuning VOR, you continue flying based on what you establish is your current position and try to look ahead for next VOR.
Emir wrote:
Because DME/DME works based on list of known nearby DME stations which was initially corrupted by spoofing attack
Not only that, but two DMEs don’t give an unambiguous fix. You need to know your starting position.
The Canadians hung onto LF four course range stations into the 1980’s, cheap to maintain and arguably less prone to error than the ADF.
The UK CPL still requires good DR skills to be demonstrated, although finding obscure landmarks that only feature on 1:250k charts seems to have gone.
The AMC of using radar control as back up to PBN GPS, doesn’t technically apply on the diversion outside CAS on the UK IR; but with fewer NDB stations or VOR/DME I wonder what terrestrial back up will be used.
I don’t recall the old skool point-to-point RMI display using 1970’s standard kit (VOR/DME/ADF) being taught in civilian courses, but an early form of RNAV technique without RNAV.
You can use 2 DMEs or even 1 without ambiguity if you are moving – here.
So a DME-DME product – like here – needs to have speed and direction info going into it. If you don’t do that, you need 3 DMEs all the time which is ridiculous.
The AMC of using radar control as back up to PBN GPS, doesn’t technically apply on the diversion outside CAS on the UK IR; but with fewer NDB stations or VOR/DME I wonder what terrestrial back up will be used.
Indeed; OCAS VFR you are on your own. In the UK, one would call up 121.50; they give you a TXP code and look you up on FR24 (only kidding) 
but that is what it sounded like when I flew with somebody who did a practice fix. They did a radar lookup, not using VDF as is normally advertised.
Luckily the UK does not get GPS jamming. Probably different doing a PPL in Poland…
This is big news though. The CAA has resisted GPS teaching since for ever, for various reasons e.g. school resistance (don’t want to equip their wreckage with GPS), official favouritism of one vendor (SD), ex RAF old fart resistance…
Peter wrote:
or even 1 without ambiguity if you are moving – here.
I doubted it then and I doubt it still. You referred to a Concorde captain who said they used a single DME to update their INS. That I can believe as INS have very good short time stability, I don’t believe that you can otherwise use a single DME for positioning. (Assuming that “single DME” means receiving a single DME station. Using a single DME unit which multiplexes between different DME stations would be different.)
Emir wrote:
You’re happily flying using GPS as a sole means of navigation. Suddenly spoofing attack moves your position 100 miles away, your ground speed goes crazy and you realize you can’t continue navigating this way. Will DME/DME help?And the answer. Initially, no. If on A/P, of course, you have to switch to HDG mode. Then you have to switch off GPS, tune the nearest known VOR/DME to determine your approximate position and then let DME/DME make it more accurate. Why? Because DME/DME works based on list of known nearby DME stations which was initially corrupted by spoofing attack. And then you can go back to NAV mode on A/P. Airliners are facing this on a daily basis.
Interesting. Doesn’t the RNAV system constantly use GPS and DME/DME (and maybe VOR/DME) as input for an integrated positioning including comparing/filtering the results? If the GPS gives “impossible” results, like position suddenly moving and crazy ground speeds, isn’t its data automatically filtered away, and the RNAV box looses precision but continue with DME/DME (and maybe VOR) data?
