I’ve heard that some FI’s are logging also student’s IFR time during PPL/CPL training in order to get their 200 IFR hours to start to instruct IR faster.
Is this a common practice or just another grey area?
Mxms
If anything, you would only be able to that in a country which allows uncontrolled IFR, without a flightplan, so not in Germany. If some UK FIs do that, it is still at the least very borderline. For example, doesn’t the
PPL syllabus say (or at least imply) that all flying must be VFR? Also, many PPL training aircraft are not IFR capable (either by certification or by equipment).
Anyway, certainly not in Germany.
maximus610 wrote:
… are logging also student’s IFR time during PPL/CPL training …
PPL and CPL training are done under VFR. How should it be possible to log IFR time then?
The CPL has an I/F component of ten hours, of which five may be in a SIM. Presumably these are logged as instrument time, albeit not airways IFR?
boscomantico wrote:
For example, doesn’t the PPL syllabus say (or at least imply) that all flying must be VFR?
RobertL18C wrote:
The CPL has an I/F component of ten hours, of which five may be in a SIM. Presumably these are logged as instrument time, albeit not airways IFR?
Yes, but… How can an instructor who has no IR instructor’s rating yet teach those 10 hours IFR flying? The wording of the EASA syllabus is “instrument instruction”. So it could (maybe?) be done as flying by sole reference to instruments during a VFR flight (with the instructor maintaining the required lookout), but this can not be logged as IFR time by anybody. And the time in the FNPT can not be logged by the instructor in any way, other than for billing the FTO for his time…
It’s not hard to ensure the flight itself is legal. The FI would need an IR (or an IMCR in the UK) and anyway the FI is always PIC (in the UK, anyway). Whether there is a flight plan is irrelevant.
I did some IMC flight in my JAA PPL, as part of the 4 hours required instrument instruction. Having said that, the FI I had was a Grade A cowboy who had to vanish not long afterwards 
The Q I would ask is whether it is legal to log time towards an IR before you have a PPL. I have a feeling you can’t, but couldn’t even begin to think of where you might find a reference for it.
There is also the angle that you could log IFR time (solo etc) on an FAA PPL/IR and can that be used towards the EASA stuff?
What_next what I stated is SOP for the CPL course in the UK, and counts towards the IR course requirement. You do need to be an IR instructor for the IR course, however if a student has done the CPL course first (we are agnostic on whether CPL before IR is preferred, my own opinion is that it probably makes more sense) they receive CAA recognised credit from the applied I/F they carried out in the CPL course towards the IR course.
I understand that up to 50 SIM hours may count towards the IR instructor 200 hour requirement. The Acme factories are struggling with this, with either their retired airline pilots losing their medicals or their career instructors not able to meet the requirement. There was a rumour that they may do away with the requirement, but doesn’t seem to have happened.
RobertL18C wrote:
What_next what I stated is SOP for the CPL course in the UK…
Not only in the UK, this is now the same for everyone EASA wide.
RobertL18C wrote:
however if a student has done the CPL course first… they receive CAA recognised credit from the applied I/F they carried out in the CPL course towards the IR course.
Yes, certainly, but only the student. The original poster however wanted to know if the instructor teaching the IFR part of the standalone-CPL (nobody around here has done that in the last 30 years, so it is a rather academic question anyway…) can log those IFR hours for himself for the purpose of getting an IR instructor rating. But according to my understanding, he cannot teach those IFR lessons in the first place.
w_n now that I finally understand the question (and did work with the insurance industry for some years, so should read the question more slowly), you are right. The instructor in that case cannot log this as IFR. I only log Instrument time if on an airways plan and not in sight of ground. On IR training flights the same applies. I don’t log SIM hours given as instruction except for FI renewal purposes and to tally with the student log.
For FAA purposes I note all IFR ILS and holds.
