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Is ICAO German Proficiency mandatory if you have a BZF?

Frans wrote:

Because a radio certificate is something separate in Germany from normal pilot licenses. It is a completely separate paper.

We have them in Sweden, too. (But I’m not certain they are separate papers – I got mine in 1983 and then it was indeed a separate paper, but now the radio certificate number is printed on the pilot’s license.)

As soon as you push the PTT-button and speak German inside Germany, you transmit a German-spoken signal onto a German radio frequency, therefore the Federal Network Agency requires you to have a BZF.

Like Ibra, I’m 100% certain that there are international conventions waiving any requirements on needing national radio licenses in international air traffic – otherwise the situation would be impossible. Are you saying that these conventions are limited to use of the English language?

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 31 Oct 07:12
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Airborne_Again wrote:

Like Ibra, I’m 100% certain that there are international conventions waiving any requirements on needing national radio licenses in international air traffic – otherwise the situation would be impossible. Are you saying that these conventions are limited to use of the English language?
EASA licenses today should have a separate “Radiotelephony privileges” entry under section XII. I have for example in my Swiss PPL a “German” and “English” entry under section XII. Maybe you have English and possibly Swedish? This covers already the BZF requirement in Germany for both English and German, in case it is registered as such. If you have only “English”, then you need a BZF in order to speak German as well.

Ibra wrote:
I never heard of “*German frequency*”, can you explain details what that means?
German frequencies are just VHF frequencies how are used and licensed by the Federal Network Agency (Bundesnetzagentur), inside the lateral borders of Germany.

Ibra wrote:
sorry, guys one can operate radio in Germany without BZF on ICAO papers (including myself), on EASA aircraft & papers, it’s even legally binding
Repeating this 10 times doesn’t make it legal inside Germany. In practice, most German CAA offices tolerate a missing BZF during ramp checks, especially if you do speak German quite well. If you want a legal binding answer, do contact the Bundesnetzagentur: https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/EN/General/contact/contact-node.html and LBA: https://www.lba.de/EN/AviationPersonnel/Licensing/Licensing_node.html

Ibra wrote:
This a bit like saying ICAO PPL can’t fly in Switzerland because he lacks “mandatory mountain training” (or USA because he does not have “mandatory night rating” in US PPL), that would a huge bullshit
That is a different story, as this “mandatory mountain training” is only an educational thing in order to get a PPL in Switzerland, but it is not a legal requirement for PPL holders at all. You can exchange any EASA PPL for a Swiss EASA PPL without additional mountain training as well. However, please do note: Without a proper mountain rating for wheels, you can’t land legally on mountainous altiports like Courchevel (LFLJ), Alpe d’Huez (LFHU) in France, or Chamois in Italy. Your American PPL won’t bring any relief. The only exception to this are ultralights, which could legally land at such altiports without a certain rating (except for Switzerland, but that’s a different story as well).
Last Edited by Frans at 02 Nov 10:54
Switzerland

In practice, most German CAA offices tolerate a missing BZF during ramp checks, especially if you do speak quite well German

Who cares what they tolerate, they have no legal handle on this for ICAO aircraft radio station, these aircraft are allowed to broadcast in VHF frequencies inside Germany, remember it’s a very simple buisness: these aircraft carry their country flag & soil with them

On EASA aircraft (e.g. PA28) based in EU, it’s even simpler it’s EU law, I am sure someone can teach German CAA officers legal lessons on this if this goes to the courts, so I would not worry about enforcing it during ramp checks, it has the risk of flattening this topic forever and making it crystal clear as legal …

Last Edited by Ibra at 02 Nov 11:00
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

As mentioned above, radiotelephone is part of national regulation and not EASA. Whether we like it or not, the German rules are as they are. And these say that for conducting radio communication in German you need to have a radio licence for German language radio communication (or equivalent, i.e. from Austria or Switzerland).

When I had my UK issued licence, I had to go for the UK FRTOL, and UK CAA confirmed I cannot conduct radio communication in the UK without this licence. So it doesn’t seem that uncommon to be required to have a radio communication licence.

LSZF Birrfeld, LFSB Basel-Mulhouse, Switzerland

When I had my UK issued licence, I had to go for the UK FRTOL

That was my understanding as well: FAA require FCC, LBA require BZF, CAA require FRTOL, DGAC require 055…

I have not heard CAA requiring G-reg pilots to hold BZF? we only hear this in online forums, usually from few German pilots

Last Edited by Ibra at 02 Nov 19:43
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

I have not heard CAA requiring G-reg pilots to hold BZF? we only hear this in online forums, usually from few German pilots

Tja… The issue is with that stuff being regulated nationally, not EASA-wide. That same stuff was also discussed within a Swiss aero club I am a member of. Bottom line: To be allowed to fly to German-only airfields, some Swiss pilots went for the Swiss radio comm licence for German RT, in addition to their English RT licence.. Take that as a real life example outside of online forums.

And yes, strictly speaking, pilots without German RT privileges would de facto be banned from landing at German-only airfields.

LSZF Birrfeld, LFSB Basel-Mulhouse, Switzerland

I would not expect aeroclub rental rules to reflect legalities, I gather they go for the most restrictive view? they fly local registration and local license anyway, likely never heard of ICAO privileges, probably never had English written on their licences…I would understand why they need BZF & German, they really should

However, I would be keen to hear from someone in Switzerland with FAA papers flying N-reg aircraft, how they managed to get German and BZF printed on their FAA papers?

PS: flying in France in FR-only airfields without French LP4 is illegal according to my local aeroclub as well but everyone with two brain cells will tell you it’s not true

Last Edited by Ibra at 03 Nov 09:43
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

How does your club suggest one gets an FLP4 on a eg UK licence?
You tend to get it as or usually level 6 on a French licence if you have done your pilot training in France.
IMO this is one of those typical French occasions where one argues, debates etc.for an hour or so every now.and again and when lunch approaches everyone just shrugs their shoulders, walks away and carries on exactly as they did beforehand. (Shh I hope the DGAC isn’t reading as perhaps they will dig down and find some obscure law which backs up the FLP4 claim) But even if they did people will argue and debate with them until lunch again approaches and everyone will shake hands, shrug their shoulders and carry on exactly as they did before.🤪

France

How does your club suggest one gets an FLP4 on a eg UK licence?

No idea? the DGAC does not print French LP on FAA or CAA papers

Again the guy who is saying sharing these insights does not have English LP…having French LP is mandatory for him according to EASA FCL055 and ICAO convention

Last Edited by Ibra at 03 Nov 10:15
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Ibra wrote:

However, I would be keen to hear from someone in Switzerland with FAA papers flying N-reg aircraft, how they managed to get German and BZF printed on their FAA papers?
You don’t have to. BZF is a separate paper. The language entry doesn’t have to be in your flying license at all. And yes, I know pilots with a FAA license how got the BZF additionally. This is actually quite common for those flying in Germany regularly (with N-reg).
Last Edited by Frans at 03 Nov 10:29
Switzerland
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