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Is ICAO German Proficiency mandatory if you have a BZF?

Did anyone got an actual confirmation from German and US Federal agencies that a standalone sub-ICAO paper like BZF is OK? I am not sure BZF is valid to operate radio on N-reg aircraft (unless one adds it to their FAA/FCC papers)

Maybe one can naively assume patching papers the “best they can” works out of the blue…I would love to see letter or confirmation from LBA or FAA on this claim

Last Edited by Ibra at 03 Nov 11:30
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

@Ibra

I would not expect aeroclub rental rules to reflect legalities, I gather they go for the most restrictive view? they fly local registration and local license anyway, likely never heard of ICAO privileges, probably never had English written on their licences…

Pardon, but that is pretty much nonsense.

Anyway, I tried explaining that RT-requirements are part of national regulation and not EASA-wide. Just to repeat what was stated above: You want to operate German language RT in Germany: You need a RT licence which covers that. You DON‘T need a German LP, assuming you have English LP.
No CAA is writing anything into a licence issued by another CAA – and there is no need for that. As stated above, for example the German BZF is a separate paper.

Last Edited by Marcel at 03 Nov 11:48
LSZF Birrfeld, LFSB Basel-Mulhouse, Switzerland

What I am saying is that separate BZF paper is useless to operate an N-reg aircraft, BZF has no value when added to an FAA PPL, in terms of value it’s about toilette paper

The only thing required to operate radio in any language on US registred aircraft is Radio Operator & Aircraft Certificates issued by FCC and “English Proficient” from DPE or FSDO

You are claiming country A rating to be valid on country B PPL, I would double check on those claims as that is not true? however, I know that country B PPL with valid English Prociciency and RT privileges from country B is valid to fly B-reg in country A and talk local language on the radio in country A, if someone does not like it they get out of ICAO or EASA…sorry, I am using ABC stuff here

When I will get some spare time, I will be back doing some gliding in Bavaria & Switzerland while speaking German on radio, we can discuss these legalities of such radio calls during evening in clubhouse after good soaring days

Last Edited by Ibra at 03 Nov 12:19
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Ibra wrote:

What I am saying is that separate BZF paper is useless to operate an N-reg aircraft, BZF has no value when added to an FAA PPL, in terms of value it’s about toilette paper
A BZF has nothing to do with the registration of your airplane. You can fly D-reg with an EASA license all over the world, without having a BZF. You can even fly a D-reg inside Germany without a BZF, as long as “English” is registered in your EASA license and you don’t speak German on the radios. As English is not allowed at German-only airfields, you need to have a BZF in order to speak German on the radios legally, no matter in which country your airplane is registered. Only if your license has “German” registered as radio privilege under section XII, you don’t need a BZF additionally.

Nevertheless, quite a few German-only airfields tolerate if you speak English. You can call the airfield ahead and ask politely if English is OK. It is still officially not allowed to use English, but in practice, it is tolerated.
Last Edited by Frans at 03 Nov 12:57
Switzerland

It helps if you refer to the actual (national) law.

In Germany, the law operates as follows

  • it requires you to have a radio telephony licence (FlugfunkV Article 1 clause 1) with some exceptions (Article 1 clause 2). One of the exceptions is for using radios in gliders outside class D or higher – so you will be fine, @Ibra, but a powered aircraft pilot needs a licence
  • It specifies that equivalent licences issued by other countries can be recognised (Article 14) and also allows for blanket approval; specifically all EU issued licences are accepted but explicitly only those that are for radiotelephony in English (Article 14 clause 6).
  • There may be other equivelent radio telephony licences (with blanket approval under Article 14 clause 1), but I was not able to find a list on-line. I would assume there is a general recognition for commercial air transport in English. The Bundesnetzagentur just tells you to enquire at [email protected]

So for the N-reg, it all depends whether the Bundesnetzagentur have decided that a FCC Radiotelephone Operator Permt is equivalent. Given the wording and general attitude, I am pretty certain it will be equivalent for English only.

The reality of course is that nobody actually cares or checks, unless you have a run-in with a Flugleiter with Blockwart-mentality…

Biggin Hill

I think we disagree fundamentally on this and I respect your opinion on it, I will keep speaking German in German only airfields, I may even post videos of this when I get into making YT flying videos one day

registered as radio privilege under section XII

There is no section XII on FAA PPL & FCC RT papers, these statements make the Yanks laugh when they hear it

Last Edited by Ibra at 03 Nov 13:12
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Frans wrote:

Only if your license has “German” registered as radio privilege under section XII, you don’t need a BZF additionally.

There is a slight subtelty here. The radiotelephony privileges in the licence are in effect the “BZF”; Articel 12 of the FlugfunkV says that the radiotelephony privileges can be entered into the flight crew licence (if the LBA decides that it should be done, which it has).

Biggin Hill

Ibra wrote:

There is no section XII on FAA PPL & FCC RT papers, this stuff tend to make the Yanks laugh when they hear it

Yes, and locally they don’t need it, but there IS the FCC Radiotelephone Operator Permit which you MUST carry when fying internationally.

In fact by adding the radio privileges to the licence instead of requiring a separate snippet of paper, the EASA licences have made things easier for those living in countries where you needed it.

Biggin Hill

Ibra wrote:

I think we disagree fundamentally on this and I respect your opinion on it, I will keep speaking German in German only airfields, I may even post videos of this when I get into making YT flying videos one day
I also disagree on requiring an additional mountain license for landing at Meribel, which is actually not so difficult at all, so I keep landing there without it. I think this is not the attitude we should have in aviation. (And yes, I disagree also with this BZF requirement, but that’s not the point here to talk about the sense or nonsense of the BZF requirement.)

Cobalt wrote:
he radiotelephony privileges in the licence are in effect the “BZF”; Articel 12 of the FlugfunkV says that the radiotelephony privileges can be entered into the flight crew licence (if the LBA decides that it should be done, which it has).
You’re absolutely right! Because the BZF is normally a separate paper, I wrote it like this, so there aren’t any confusions.
Last Edited by Frans at 03 Nov 13:55
Switzerland

I also disagree on requiring an additional mountain license for landing at Meribel, which is actually not so difficult at all, so I keep landing there without it. 

That looks like a better way to do it: state in AIP AD for German only airfields that BZF is mandatory…I can see how that would legally work and LBA can legally require it and enfoce it, why airfields can’t add this as requirement in AIP AD2? or when getting PNR/PPR?

AFAIK, airport and traffic regulations (ADR & ATM) are national ones, as such DGAC can require qualification to land at Meribel, FOCA can require crew qualifications to fly ILS at Sion

However, regulating foreign aircraft radios and foreign licences? I can’t see how that works, sorry…

Last Edited by Ibra at 03 Nov 16:25
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom
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