Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

Joining IFR out of Sabadell (LELL)

ATC cannot cancel IFR for you, but in some places things happen differently

Super pics, Aart I am thinking of doing a trip to Spain before this year is over, maybe October. I did one to Salamanca a year ago. Maybe we could do a meet-up down there? There aren’t many places in Europe where one can fly in Oct/Nov and get decent wx.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

The controller from Barcelona did cancel IFR for me using the phrase “IFR is canceled” without me asking for it. I believe that is not supposed to happen.

I think that is very bad, and I think i would have told him – online – what I think about that. No way can ATC cancel IFR without the pilot accepting. I think that this would be a good reason to write a letter to the right ATC manager.

aart wrote:

Stephan, if you have not already done so, you may want to go there soon. 20 mins from Sabadell!

See http://www.stephan-schwab.com/2015/07/11/lell-lecd.html

Frequent travels around Europe

aart wrote:

little disconcerting this vagueness in Spain sometimes about your status. I think I am going to be more assertive in future about getting a positive clearance to start IFR and one to cancel it.

Yes. And that actually reminds me of a strange thing on my last flight.

The controller from Barcelona did cancel IFR for me using the phrase “IFR is canceled” without me asking for it. I believe that is not supposed to happen.

After PUMAL I was at FL160 and descending towards Sabadell. The sky was clear after those cumulus I was talking about in another thread. So I could see everything from far away. At probably 6000’ the controller said “IFR is canceled”. That’s not really a problem as I was approaching a VFR only field anyway for the landing but it is not by the book – right? I also had a feeling that she doesn’t really speak English. She did repeat the question “are you visual with the ground” several times and I was responding in loose conversational terms. After two or three loops I repeated “visual with the ground” and then her response was “IFR is canceled”.

Frequent travels around Europe

going to be more assertive in future about getting a positive clearance to start IFR

Good luck!

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

Private field, Mallorca, Spain

Yes, things are ‘looser’ down here. I flew from Mallorca to La Cerdanya (LECD) yesterday. Btw, one of my favorite destinations. In the middle of the Pyrenees, informal, lively airfield, excellent restaurant, unforgettable views, and this crisp mountain air. Stephan, if you have not already done so, you may want to go there soon. 20 mins from Sabadell!
Anyway, decided to go back IFR, Z. Filed for an airway straight over Barcelona, FL100, always a nice sight. IFR clearance pick up point PUMAL, not far from La Cerdanya. Called Barcelona Control way ahead to pick up my clearance, but they asked me to ‘stand by’. Just about to get to PUMAL I was getting into IMC, and basically had no choice but to get into class A at FL80 and keep climbing (no room between ground and cloud base) and they asked me to change frequency. Obviously, it took 30 seconds to establish contact and the controller asked me ‘whether I was IFR’. Said yes.. No much risk there, really no traffic, but still a little disconcerting this vagueness in Spain sometimes about your status. I think I am going to be more assertive in future about getting a positive clearance to start IFR and one to cancel it.

Last Edited by aart at 20 Sep 15:52
Private field, Mallorca, Spain

As this is a bit about flying in and out of Sabadell (LELL) I want to add a few things that I learned / observed.

Barcelona approach working the TMA does indeed ask airliners frequently “are you visual with the ground?” before allowing them to descend. There destination is the IFR only airport El Prat (LEBL) so I think they will never leave controlled airspace at any time. It seems to happen when they come in over the mountains. Plus I have a feeling that it only happens with non-Spanish crews. I’ve never heard the equivalent of the question in Spanish but I may have missed it.

The other thing is that flying within Barcelona class A TMA doesn’t really feel like “IFR”. It has more a VFR feeling to it. Yes, you do get a clearance with altitude and a waypoint to navigate to. But somehow there is that growing impression it is all about getting there somehow and not necessarily in a straight line. Especially when leaving towards France all they seem to care about is that you leave the Barcelona FIR and do everything with the French on the other side. Crossing between Germany and France or Germany and Switzerland feels different and much more controlled.

What they do seem to care about is that you cross the FIR boundary at the established waypoints and along the airways. Unlike France, Germany, and Switzerland they will not send you to a waypoint within another FIR.

Frequent travels around Europe

As I promised to tell what the Sabadell ATCO said about leaving LELL and picking up the IFR clearance from Barcelona I shall continue.

Sabadell Tower can send departing aircraft into the hold over SLL only if the weather allows the pilot to stay VMC until at least 4000’. If that is not possible, then a regular VFR departure via the VFR routes is the only option. The ATCO mentioned that to the North-West of the field there is lower terrain.

Sabadell has an ATZ which is class D. Around it there is class E from the surface to 3500. That is called the Barcelona VFR sector below the TMA which is class A. The ATZ class D also goes from the surface to 3500.

The remaining parts around are class G and touch at different altitudes the class A TMA. The lower terrain is where the class G is.

There are quite a few mountains around the area. Today it did rain and those mountains were in clouds. I was busy with other things but here and there the METAR did mention cloud altitudes of around 2000’. The field elevation is 485’.

Based on the type of other aircraft stationed at Sabadell I guess picking up an IFR clearance is not a common thing. There is mostly DA20, Cessna 150/172.

Frequent travels around Europe

Just answer “yes” to the question and you’ll be fine, especially given your equipment… The question is silly to begin with.

Last Edited by achimha at 07 Sep 22:46
116 Posts
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top