Emir wrote:
C’mon… missing localiser, missing speeds,what kind of flying is that?
All true, the flight should have stopped while ago when FO busted the 250kts or visually mis-identified the runway…
After that, it just looks like a gammer flying F18 in FS2000 doing 50nm leg
take any junior ATPL FO in the business, even top-gun of the simulator with 100% marks, he will roll it 90deg on final in that tricky landing*
I doubt that. And a typical narrowbody jet isn’t less complex than a lear.
C’mon… missing localiser, missing speeds, missing altitudes, missing IF, FAF, not contacting tower, not able to do correct read-back, trying to make impossible circling and finally stalling the aircraft. What kind of flying is that?Exactly! Fully agree!
Their flight is barely 15min, I am not sure how that would work appart from self-breif? or as discussed on ground? I think in a multi-crew this would be: let’s do a long visual circuit, so checklists/breifs/talks are kept to minima
I’ve done flights less than 20 minutes. No problem to brief and do all procedures. Instead of self creating non-standard visual procedures one way to deal with this is to ask for delay vectors (for descent) and stick to doing everything as per SOP.
What was this ‘captain’ (I hesitate to use the term) thinking in letting an unqualified SIC fly that leg?
I don’t think this should even exist. Don’t think this exists in Europe. A sic that is per ops manual not allowed to fly… a bit of a contradiction there. The airlines I’ve worked for had aerodrome category a b c, c was only fo landing when special training was performed (eg I could do LOWI as fo but Brac was cpt ldg).
boscomantico wrote:
What I don‘t understand: how can you pass a sim session whilst getting such negative notes on your performance. Is there no fail mode at all?
Yea and how can you be qualified SIC on an airplane with pnf only? I don’t think that makes any sense at all. After all, there are two pilots supposed to fly this airplane, not a pilot and something difficult to define what his role was. SIC only implies to me that he is a fully qualified first officer, it is totally new to me that someone can sit in the RH seat without being allowed to actually fly the airplane. What in case of an incapacitation of the PIC?
Peter wrote:
a useless co-pilot can make life a lot harder than flying with an empty seat.
I wonder how that applies to this flight. The SIC only had PNF authorisation so he was not actually qualified to fly the airplane. The PIC decided to give him a flight lesson for the want of an adequate term, which was illegal but something one can halfways understand IF and only IF he keeps situational awareness and stays on top of things. This clearly was not the case. The SIC obviously had a better understanding of his own capabilities and tried to hand over controls to the PIC several times before he, way too late, finally took them. The SIC then perfomed his tasks of advising about speed but the PIC appeared incapable of following them.
All in all a totally absymal performance of two pilots who both had no place in this airplane. Thankfully they only killed themselfs and no innocent bystanders.
Snoopy wrote:
II’ve done flights less than 20 minutes. No problem to brief and do all procedures
I just think that is the most plausible explanation for LOC, I was not sure if they have ever flew a short flight like that? ok, 32kts surface gusts maybe? can’t fly 45kts gusts at 4000ft? if professional and current, the only risk when flying in 20G35 is pax losing teeth
I can’t believe that combo LHS+RHS just could not stay alive that day? I am sure those profiles have done load of Pacific flights at FL500 eating caviar and wearing zulu sets in Hawaii (that what’s company does), so only a short flight will show their weakness vs standard procedures…
But lot more to it on crew profile/coordination: it seems the “cowboy” Captain (1000h on Lear) and the “screwed” FO (250h on Lear/2700h TT) already had a bad day in the company day well before getting strapped, the good news no pax was around and no one is hurt on the ground (the pilots had already enough in their criminal records)
https://www.flyingmag.com/teterboro-learjet-crash-raises-questions-about-crew-qualifications/
Flight plan with FL270 as cruise altitude… what kind of software would generate this on such short route? And is there an explanation why he asked for higher when he was pretty much at correct altitude for the phase of the flight he was in?
The way I see it the PIC is to blame entirely. The SIC wanted to hand over the controls but the PIC did not take them. He was probably very far behind the aircraft.
What a mess.
Same here:
The blame is 100% with the PIC.
It was his idea to let the SIC-0 F/O fly from the left seat. Both were not qualified for that.
Briefings can be done on the ground before T/O on very short flights.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
it is totally new to me that someone can sit in the RH seat without being allowed to actually fly the airplane. What in case of an incapacitation of the PIC?
It’s pretty normal in helicopter operations, both military and ambulance. There is only one pilot, and the “RH seat” is occupied by the technician or the rescue person. Neither of them can fly, but they are able to set the aircraft down in case the pilot is incapacitated. CAT helicopter operations, as well as some larger helicopters, requires two pilots.
I don’t think there is much to learn from this accident when flying a SEP. But maybe there is? Obviously the captain wanted to give the co pilot a chance to fly the aircraft, with the idea that he would not simply take over the controls in case he screwed it up along the way. We could also end up in a similar situation I guess. Helping a “rusty” friend, but none of us being prepared for the flight, thinking the other person should do the preparations for instance.
I wonder where the SIC learned that he was going to fly this leg. If it was on the ground, he should even set his foot in the airplane to begin with. If it was once they were up in the air, and the PIC continued to refuse to take over the controls, then I don’t know what the SIC could do in this case. Play dead to force the PIC to take over the controls?
