Hello,
I have already asked for it in some previous thread, but almost no response. We need examples from European countries of the prices for GA some years ago and now. As you may know, we want to convince the European Commission that some form of anti monopoly intervention is needed in regards to airport’s (including handling) fees for GA.
K&K is finalizing documents for that, but without good examples – we simply limit our chances of being heard…
For now we just have examples from Poland, Ibiza in Spain, soon Greece and some data from Sweden. For the situation that has developed in Europe this is not representational at all and way too few of such…
So please look into your drawers and get the old and current invoices/bills from the places you fly. Having such please scan them (or take photo with your smartphone) and send onto the address: [email protected]
I know it requires some effort, but your involvement is in need now!
HI Bart
I have just sent you and email with the quote attached for a flight to LEIB Ibiza this year. I will give you the actual invoice after the trip.
Can others please help Bart with invoices etc for the airports we are all concerned about, the Fraport Greek ones for example.
Paul
My feeling is, the approach is wrong and in contradiction to simple economical rules.
Assumption Number One: in an operable economical world, which I have to admit we no longer have in the arising EUdssr, airports have to cover fixed and variable costs. If you don’t use your aircraft for common travel, the sunday coffee hop will cost a fortune. If you use your aircraft frequently, fixed costs are getting down in importance.
Even more regulation is not the solution!
Dejwu
airports, by their very nature, are local monopolies. In most places there is some competition, from another airport that is not too far away,
In the case of Greek Islands, Ibiza, or even Manchester in the UK, the lack of an alternative airport on the island or in the area, leads to a strong monopoly. As much as we may not like it, regulation is the only defence for the pilot community. Hence Bart’s excellent initiative to try and use EU antimonopoly law to our benefit.
Please everyone, can you help Bart with the evidence he has asked for.
I sent an offer from Goteborg ESGG – over €800 for landing, handling (€680) and one night parking for DA42.
dewju wrote:
Assumption Number One: in an operable economical world, which I have to admit we no longer have in the arising EUdssr, airports have to cover fixed and variable costs. If you don’t use your aircraft for common travel, the sunday coffee hop will cost a fortune. If you use your aircraft frequently, fixed costs are getting down in importance.
Of course costs have to be recovered. But what costs do really arise from the landing of a typical sub 2t GA aircraft? The tarmac on all airports made for heavier aircraft takes no damage from GA. Lighting is a cost factor, but since most GA takes place in good weather and daylight, not a big one. ATC is usually the biggest cost factor. In Germany you receive a separate invoice for landing at controlled airports (by DFS), typically around 15€ for a light GA aircraft. We can use this as a data point of how expensive the ATC cost produced by GA really is, because DFS is legally obliged to not make a profit. What further costs arise? Handling is usually not required by GA and mandatory handling makes no sense except to generate money without covering any essential costs.
So let’s if we assume that ATC is the single biggest cost factor (let’s say 50%) and costs around 15€ per landing, why should airport total fees be higher than 30€ or maybe 50€ total? Note that I did not include parking fees which of course depend on the length of stay and the available space.
Bart, do you need invoices of big-but-cheap airports as examples for your case ?
If we think about the cost we create to a controlled airport, they are close to zero unless some space et staff are dedicated to GA/BA. When ATC is open, it doesn’t cost more to anyone to handle traffic compared to doing nothing.
With this reasoning, getting FIS from an APP unit should be charged too.
It would be helpful if the BA community were in our side in this fight. They are victims too. 700€ for a stop at Le Bourget is significant for a TBM/PC12 operator.
Apart from the fact that using the phrase “EUdSSR” in an internet post already renders any argument in said post invalid.
That doesn’t help much. The arguments still stand and it’s 100% valid. All references in Europe and the US shows that there is no way GA can survive on public airports without this being regulated, sometimes evrn financed by the state. Private strips run by clubs and benovelent persons excepted, this is a different concepts.
Do we want more regulation from the state, or not. IMO there is no way without it, so yes. Other people have different opinions on this. Not to be rude, but state regulation of stuff like this works just perfectly in Scandinavia, Germany, even the USA, but Greece and Spain? Hmmmm.
We are talking at cross purposes I think.
Some countries have active government policies to support GA, the USA being the prime example, where almost all airports receive federal money and in return need to stay open 24 hrs, be easily accessible etc. Perhaps Scandi and Germany are in the same direction, I dont know. But in general in Europe airports are owned by all sorts of entities – federal governments, state and municipal entities, privatised entities, privately owned etc. And in most places there is no government direction, it is a free for all, with owners feeling they have the right to charge and restrict whatever they want.
That is why Bart’s initiative is so important, because he is trying to use EU antimonopoly/abuse of monopoly law to the benefit of the GA community. EU antimonopoly is very powerful, just ask Google who got hit with a multibillion fine.
Buckerfan wrote:
That is why Bart’s initiative is so important, because he is trying to use EU antimonopoly/abuse of monopoly law to the benefit of the GA community. EU antimonopoly is very powerful, just ask Google who got hit with a multibillion fine.
Very different things. Google use their market dominance to squeeze others out. There are no “others” here, which is thee main problem is it not? If I run a restaurant, the only one in town, I can charge whatever I want for the food. I charge $1000 for a hamburger, and I’m very satisfied with my 4 customers per week. No one can object to that. Anyone can start their own restaurant and compete, or attract other customers. Likewise, anyone can start their own FBO, but if the Airport CEO tries to stop it, then there is a problem? Also if it is mandatory to use an FBO, even when there is no need for it, this could be a problem? but perhaps only as long as there is only one of them? I don’t know.
I mean, the airport manager is only saying, this is my airport, and this what I charge. I’m happy with my customers, and they are happy with me. If it’s too expensive for you, then build your own airport, or go somewhere else. It’s not his fault nor his responsibility that there are no other alternatives, just like the restaurant. The only way for him to take you at much reduced charge, is by changing the legislation.
I’m communist enough to see that lots of things just are not handled best by free market forces. GA infrastructure is definitely one of those things, and the main reason is that is the market is microscopic, still it has just enough people that are willing to pay $1000 for an hamburger to keep it humping along. It has nothing to do with monopoly or anything like that, it’s more like remnants of a layered society where money and “position” rules, and people are deep down OK with it. And a complete lack of “Aviation Spirit” 
I hope Bart et al succeed, I really do. It’s not clear to me exactly how, but I’m open to learn.
