Aviathor wrote:
When I did my PPL in Norway, you obtained a student pilot’s license after solo. It was signed by the aeroclub’s head of training. I cannot recall that there were any flight orders as described by @mh for Germany.
I thought they still did, but I guess not? Gliders still have student pilot license (in Norway at least) even though this is an EASA thing today. The rationale is that the law requires a PIC to have a valid license. Flying solo as a student, you will be PIC, so you must have a license. EASA also requires a PIC to have a license, so this thing with no student pilot license is rather odd.
Sweden also used to have Student Pilot Licenses. It still has for non-EASA licenses.
When I did my PPL in Norway, you obtained a student pilot’s license after solo. It was signed by the aeroclub’s head of training. I cannot recall that there were any flight orders as described by @mh for Germany.
In France I believe that the student obtains a “Brevet de base” at solo. With this license he can fly within a certain radius around the departure airport without further formalities. He needs a sign-off by his instructor for the long cross-country and to land at any other airfield.
italianjon wrote:
So I guess you need a student licence in Germany
No such thing in Germany. There is, however, a "Rollauftrag and “Flugauftrag”. This translates roughly to “taxi order” and “flight order”.
The instructor can give a student a taxi order, so that the student can operate the aircraft on the ground. I use this prior to the solo quite a lot, so the students get used to operate the engine on the ground. They then usually taxi to the fuel pump.
Similarly, the instructor can issue a flight order. This is usually more specified, like: “Perform 10 traffic circuits. If the skydivers are out, leave the traffic pattern, do a number of 360s and then enter the traffic pattern again, I’ll be on the radio at all times” or something like that. For local flights, the flight order can be oral and the instructor has to monitor the student and be on the radio. Some instructors monitor their students from inside another plane (with another student). I personally use this time for paperwork. (seems I won’t run out of THAT!). For cross country flights, there is a form for a written flight order, in which the flight instructor states the exact task, that he has checked the flight preparation and how he can be reached by phone if anything occurs. So, there is paper.
As with everything EASA, interpretation is rife.
In the cited example, when I started the thread. In establishing a “trial lesson”; formally ex. 3, for my friend – can the instructor refuse to sign and recognise the training as dual under EASA regs, does Germany implement a student licence and therefore this is stopping the recognition or is this the club or instructor creatively interpreting things?
I can cite other examples, off topic, but the further you get into aviation the more you find people making up bullshit and passing it off as EASA Regs; CAA Regs, LAA Regs… whatever to suit their interests.
Tumbleweed wrote:
but that does not match the EASA requirement to have completed a course at one ATO who sign off the course as complete
This sounds like more of this “creative” interpretations of EASA regulations in my opinion. So, you have one hour left and the school goes bankrupt, then what? Clearly this is nonsense.
Tumbleweed wrote:
hat does not match the EASA requirement to have completed a course at one ATO who sign off the course as complete
Where does it say that then?? Happens every day that students transfer between ATOs/RTFs, new ATO accepts training completed elsewhere with some kind of transfer of training records and logbook certification then cracks on. I have examined multiple PPL candidates already this year that have done training at various schools and they’ve all have licences issued no problems.
Amazing revelations, Tumbleweed! Especially the one about having to do it all at one school.
Additionally, AMC1- FCL 050 requires all flights that you wish to claim towards a licence or rating must be signed off by the instructor giving the training, if its not signed then they do not count. Many instructors are unaware of this!
Gosh this means I need to re-do my PPL 
Firstly, there is no such thing as a “trial lesson” although we regularly hear the term along with “frozen ATPL”. If an instructor gives a lesson, usually Exercise 3, then it is fully countable towads a PPL however; the EASA rules state that a PPL shall be conducted at an ATO and that means the entire course, so if you continue at the ATO where you did Ex 3 it can be counted towards the 45 hours required. Pre EASA you could mix and match your flying at a number of schools, but that does not match the EASA requirement to have completed a course at one ATO who sign off the course as complete. It would be the school who refuse to accept a flight not given by them. Additionally, AMC1- FCL 050 requires all flights that you wish to claim towards a licence or rating must be signed off by the instructor giving the training, if its not signed then they do not count. Many instructors are unaware of this!
There is no Student Pilot’s Licence under EASA; a person must have a valid medical certificate to act as a pilot of aeroplanes when flying solo. As it has been in the UK for over 30 years.
The UK CAA recently introduced the EASA concept of an “Introductory Flight”
Introductory flights
Introductory flights are a new EASA provision designed to allow people to be taken on air experience tours in light aircraft. Provided the following conditions are met, it is not necessary for the pilot to be an instructor or for the flight to be operated under commercial air transport rules. The flight must be performed either via an EASA approved training organisation (ATO) with its principle place of business in the UK, or through an organisation created to promote aerial sport or leisure aviation, on the condition that:
The aircraft is either owned or dry leased by the organisation;
Any profit made from the flights are kept within the organisation; and
If non-members of the organisation are involved, for example members of the public, the flights represent only a marginal activity of the organisation.
EASA and non-EASA aircraft may be used; however they must have a valid Certificate of Airworthiness, or be a type approved permit to fly aircraft which is already allowed to be used for remunerated training and self fly hire within the terms of the relevant exemptions.
We would expect these flights to last around 30 to 90 minutes, although for gliders this may vary depending on the weather. In the case of aeroplanes and helicopters, they must return to the place of departure.
They are not designed, and should not be sold, to replace the traditional trial lesson in which a qualified instructor would typically give a demonstration of the controls and some flight training exercises with the participant handling the aircraft. Flight time as a passenger on an introductory flight will not count as training towards the grant of a pilot’s licence.
While holders of private licences may conduct introductory flights, they may not personally receive any payment for doing so.
Further details here
Michal
https://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=224&pagetype=90&pageid=16888
And the IN with EASA links
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/InformationNotice2015029.pdf
Hope that helps!
