Logging hours as CRI

Really brilliant, @LFHNflightstudent – well done!

Your TT is not excessive; it is fairly average for a pilot without previous IFR time (logged or unlogged).

Congratulations, @LFHNflightstudent – well done!

I did my IR in exactly one month, including TK – at KHWD Hayward, CA, an easy 30 minute drive from where I lived. TK was a 3-day course with a MCQ exam at the end.

I think the 18 months ordeal that LFHNflightstudent describes is what keeps people away from the IR.

Well several more aspects and further away from the initial topic, but I would like to comment on some of those:

what_next wrote:

They have a fleet of aircraft to maintain and their instructors to pay. An ATO is not a charity whose purpose it is to get as many people flying as cheaply as possible.

I completely agree on the fact that an ATO is a business and has to make money. Therefore I can’t understand, why most ATOs I had a closer look on, do not see the CB-IR as a chance to gain more money, but instead fearing a loss, because people are not doing the old route anymore, paying less for the theory and less for the practical training. I for myself can say, I wouldn’t have done the classic modular IR, so that is additional earnings, that wouldn’t be possible without the CB-IR. And there are only some ATOs that are really focussed on CB-IR propagating it.

Peter wrote:

…seen as the “FTO ripoff” business…

I wouldn’t formulate it that harsh, these flying schools are delivering to 95% of there customers, what they need/want/expect and the private pilot, who wants to fly IFR on his own just doesn’t fit into this concept.

Peter wrote:

The need for most cadidates to stay in a hotel (usually this will be some really crappy hotel or B&B) just makes the whole experience even less nice. Every private pilot who has had to do this really hated that aspect of it, especially as everybody who has the money to actually fly afterwards does have a “life” of some sort.

I had a very nice holiday flat 10 mins walk from the airport, that was actually quite nice to stay, but I was there only twice, each time shorter than a week, this wouldn’t be possible with the classic modular IR.

what_next wrote:

Peter wrote:

After all, he is charging some 50 quid an hour…

… Around here, a PPL instructor gets paid something between our minimum wages (8,50Euros) and 20 Euros per flying hour.
…An IR instructor gets a little more, but 50 Pounds / 60 Euros? No way.

I have to second what_next here, in the ATOs I know, the FIs are getting ridiciously low hourly rates, airborne time only. In most cases the CPL/IR/MEP instructors see about 1.8 times the money. Nevertheless the ATOs are charging figures far above that from the students.

I have no insight in the calculations of a commercially run ATO, but I guess the problem here is the way costs are charged for. In a lot of leaflets and offers of flying schools you read “no hidden costs”, what that should mean is, that the flying school offers a complete price list with all items that will show up on your invoice. But what they mean is: We accepted, that students applying the most simple scheme for calculating their expected costs with. That is: minimum flying time according to law*(aircraft hourly rate + instructor rate). Then they take the cheapest of they can find.

Obviously a business can’t work like that. As what_next said an ATO is a business, they have fixed cost, they have variable cost. For the hangar, for the office, for the administration, etc. And if most people want to have that put in the simple figures above, the result is what we see. And in the cases I have seen that means, an ATO charges 200% the money they are paying a free lance FI + VAT and still have no obligations, like social security cost, etc. because what they offer their FIs is flying time. The transparent way would be to have some more figures on your invoice, what would lead to “hidden costs” according to some students definition.

what_next wrote:

Not here. I think no place in Germany is more than one hour drive away from an instrument flying school. Small country, densely populated…

That is probably true, but not all are offering the same courses, aircraft, etc. and if there is only one choice within close range it is still like a monopol.

Peter wrote:

The sim rate is £200+/hr because you pay for the IRI also. Sure, a twin is even more.

In that regard schools in Germany seem to be far cheaper again, at least what I have seen FNPTs are below 200€ including IRI/FI IR

Peter wrote:

But this is well off topic because a CRI cannot do any of this anyway.

Completely agree, maybe we need three seperate topics already. ;-)

LFHNflightstudent wrote:

I have like many people here no interest in ever exploring an ATP career or do a CPL – all I want is to be able to fly my plane safely around 90% of the time which I feel the CB-IR gives me. Of course I can fly commercially, and yes it might be cheaper but where is the fun in that. I think overall my CB-IR cost me somewhere around the 30K€ mark, admittedly a lot of money but when you have no experience like I have and still want to be pretty sure to come back in one piece and on time from the weekend trips I do with the family and friends in the Comanche (to be clear if there is a change I won’t be able to come back safely I don’t go or fly somewhere else) I felt it was needed. I feel a safer and more complete pilot for it, naive maybe but flying IFR definitely makes you more precise in how you fly.

I would like to emphasize that this is nearly the way I look at the IR. There is enough weather that is perfectly flyable VFR, but IFR it is safer or with less hassle. A lot of people will claim, that this is a pure legality issue, put if you can e.g. admit to ATC, that you are in IMC, this already makes things safer.

Aviathor wrote:

I think the 18 months ordeal that LFHNflightstudent describes is what keeps people away from the IR.

But can you draw a shorter line to the IR? It took me the same time, could have been shortened a little, but not significantly without comfort.

TobiBS wrote:

But can you draw a shorter line to the IR?

My – so far – one and only CB-IR student took his theory by online/distance learning course during last winter, sat in the classroom for two weekends in February for his mandatory minimum classroom hours and passed his theory exam in March. We went flying in April and May (half the time in the FNPT, the other half in the aircraft) and all was over before June. The man has a full time job and a family and as an added complication both German and English are foreign languages to him.

TobiBS wrote:

In that regard schools in Germany seem to be far cheaper again, at least what I have seen FNPTs are below 200€ including IRI/FI IR

We charge 160 Euros for the FNPT including instructor.

TobiBS wrote:

Obviously a business can’t work like that.

FTOs can hardly work at all. Over the last ten years, more than half of the flight training organisations in Germany have given up. Some of them large, long established companies. Even Lufthansa wants to shut down it’s training facility.

On the subject of 170A, not the very nice Cessna with metal wings, nice ailerons and no dihedral (possibly their nicest SEP), I aim to have the IR training for students done with two hours to spare if the student is capable, and a reasonable proportion do get their IR in minimum hours (20 hours in an FNPT, and 15 hours in the aircraft if they have the 10 hour credit from a CPL). Recall that an initial issue CAA exam fee is currently GBP775 before the cost of the aircraft, and the cost of approaches; so getting a quality control from a senior examiner that they are indeed ready is a confidence builder. If the 170A is done within the minimum time the additional cost is marginal in the context of an IR.

The candidates wanting to go to a fATPL ideally need a first time pass, and only an experienced IRE can provide a good practice exam with the experience to indicate where additional training may be required. None of these students, that I know, complain about the 170A, and I believe they can opt out if they felt strongly about it. Presumably the FTO would ask the instructor to OK the ready to test form.

I did my IR MEP SP and OPC today, 01:50 in a 44 years young Seneca 1, and the years take their toll although the ride went fine I recall when the ride was a breeze, walk in the park, some decades ago – no longer, worked every minute of it and no chance of hitting the AP and YD buttons at 400 AGL. The Seneca 1 also seemed to feel the same way as the asymmetric go around was more anemic than usual (two back seaters and some low level chop, plus the effect of a very average pilot).

A completely different topic:
It saddens me to hear the very low wages of flight instructors in some of the countries. When I have my first job as a fresh instructor in 2009 I had about 25-30 euros/ flight hour + 0.2 I think. I’d say that at least 30 euros/hr is a solid standard/minimum in Sweden these days. Flight time does not pay your bills…