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Logging IFR time!!!??

Hi everyone, (I posted this on different forum but no reply though try it here instead)

I have some questions about my logbook and counting IFR time.
I’m using an FAA Senior Logbook for my training and professional career. But there is an issue with my current logbook, the column called operational condition IFR time is not included in my logbook. please look at the image below for better understanding. In my loogbook it says Actual, Simulated, approaches, holds and nav track. These are not the same as instrument flight rules. I have worked for a US airlines Part 135 and flew over 700 hours in IFR condition (10 years ago). How can I logg this hours as IFR? since a column is missing in my logbook?
Can I create an IFR column (there are empty columns ) and insert the time I flew under instrument flight rules (IFR)

I’m trying to take a IRI (A) course that requires 800 hours IFR time and the flight school is giving my hard time?

Looking forward to hear your comments

ESGT/ESGP, Sweden

If there are empty columns, I don’t see why you can’t use one to record your IFR time. If they are empty, then presumably they are empty so that you can use them for other things that you need to record.

EIWT Weston, Ireland

Thanks Dublinpilot for your comment, I have asked this questions to Swedish CAA and they dont know what to do either. (they said an expert is going to give me a call to discuss)

The good thing is that the company I worked for in USA keep all the records and they told me yesterday if someone request it they can provide it to them,

ESGT/ESGP, Sweden

It is an FAA logbook the format of which is not proscribed. You can put whatever you like in it.

EGTK Oxford

Of course you can use an unused column for IFR time. Your issue seems rather how to reconstruct EASA style IFR time from US style instrument time.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

I would think probably all Part 135 airborne time is under IFR – depending on the type of operation.

Also US style “instrument time” is 100% IFR time. It is all time (a) in IMC or (b) under the hood (and the two are logged in separate columns).

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Actual instrument time is a well defined operating condition requiring flight in IMC while operating the aircraft by sole reference to the instruments. Actual instrument time must therefore count as flight under IFR for Part-FCL purposes because flight in IMC implies (but is not implied by) flight under IFR.

If all flights have been correctly logged according to US logging rules then you have probably on some occasion operated under IFR in VMC in which case the time cannot be logged as actual instrument time. In other words it is possible to have more time under IFR than could be deduced alone from the fact that actual instrument time is a subset of flight under IFR.

There is albeit a caveat. Under US logging rules a non-instrument rated pilot may log PIC and actual instrument time in IMC when acting as the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which a rating is held. Assuming single-pilot operations the acting PIC in this situation is not permitted, bizarrely, to log PIC time. See the interpretation given to Keith E Walker on 14 Dec 2011 by Rebecca B MacPherson as the Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations.

Point FCL.915.IRI(a)(1) in Part-FCL for which there is absolutely no safety basis does not require the operating capacity to have been as PIC so the above caveat is likely to be ignored assuming, heroically, that it’s known about in the first place.

London, United Kingdom

Qalupalik wrote:

If all flights have been correctly logged according to US logging rules then you have probably on some occasion operated under IFR in VMC in which case the time cannot be logged as actual instrument time. In other words it is possible to have more time under IFR than could be deduced alone from the fact that actual instrument time is a subset of flight under IFR.

Although actual instrument time may imply that the flight is conducted under IFR or IMC, neither is correct. IFR applies to rules under which the flight was conducted and has nothing to say about conditions. IMC just means conditions outside of VFR conditions and include visibility, lateral and vertical cloud separation. Visual conditions are those that allow control of the aircraft visually with references outside of the aircraft. So if a flight is conducted 200 feet above a cloud deck, the conditions are IMC, even if the visibility is 100 miles, so you still can control the aircraft visually without the use of instruments. So actual instrument time is time which control of the aircraft requires using the flight instruments, so inside a cloud this is actual instrument time and should be conducted under IFR. However, on a dark night, no moon and a high overcast, over the water or desert, the visibility and cloud conditions can be such that the flight is being operated in VMC, but to maintain control of the airplane, you must use and rely on the instruments, This is VMC and simultaneously log-able as actual instrument and can be operated under VFR or IFR rules. A hood is an artificial way of requiring the instruments to maintain control of the aircraft and is distinguished from actual instrument conditions.

Last Edited by NCYankee at 20 Sep 19:50
KUZA, United States

@ NCYankee

You’re absolutely right and thanks for clarifying the logic with the counterexample of logging actual instrument time under VFR.

The interpretation given to Joseph P Carr on 7 Nov 1984 by John H Cassady as Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations & Enforcement Division (source) addresses this situation:

… a pilot may log as instrument flight time
only that time during which he or she operates the aircraft
solely by reference to instruments, under actual (instrument
meteorological conditions (i.m.c.)) or simulated instrument
flight conditions. “Simulated” instrument conditions occur when
the pilot’s vision outside of the aircraft is intentionally
restricted, such as by a hood or goggles. “Actual” instrument
flight conditions occur when some outside conditions make it
necessary for the pilot to use the aircraft instruments in order
to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. Typically, these
conditions involve adverse weather conditions.

To answer your first question, actual instrument conditions may
occur in the case you described, a moonless night over the ocean
with no discernible horizon, if use of the instruments is
necessary to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. The
determination as to whether flight by reference to instruments is
necessary is somewhat subjective, and based in part on the sound
judgement of the pilot. …

Cassady’s reference to IMC should be ignored.

On closer inspection of the OP’s logbook I can see none of this makes a whit of difference. No flight releases retained by the operator?

Last Edited by Qalupalik at 21 Sep 03:37
London, United Kingdom

Cool!

NCYankee wrote:

However, on a dark night … the … conditions can be … VMC, but to maintain control of the airplane, you must use and rely on the instruments, This is VMC and simultaneously log-able as actual instrument and can be operated under VFR or IFR rules.

Hmmm…. Visual Meteorological Conditions? I know what you say is legally true, but it brings to light the more or less stupidity of the V in Night _V_FR. Never made entire sense to me.

Having said that there is something special about flying Night VFR

ABCD wrote:

the column called operational condition IFR time is not included in my logbook

Got the same problem in Ozzy where they went to Part 61 a few years ago, that only knows “IFR time”. Everything in Ozzy used to be Instrument Flight Time and nobody logged Operational Time. Now they have changed the rules and obviously noone knows exactly how much “time on an IFR plan” they really have.

Surprise surprise the logbooks in Australia haven’t yet caught on to this, so I use an empty column ever since as someone suggested.

It’s safe to assume that any flight where Instrument Flight Time (=IMC) was logged, that that flight was conducted on an IFR plan, and thus the entire logbook entry counts towards IFR.

Except for those flights where you flew on the foggles with a safety pilot…

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