Hello!
After having been reading this friendly forum for a little while (and even before then, having read peter’s detailed aviation website), I am know taking this big step of opening a new discussion :)
The topic probably concerns more directly present, past or future Londoners, but my question is twofold and one half really invites everybody to comment.
To introduce myself briefly, I have been flying for the past 10 years in France (with some interruptions), where I got my PPL on a very charming DR400 (and where I got the TW variant to fly the even more charming DR220!). Having moved across France quite a bit, I got my PPL in northern France, then I flew a bit in Biarritz and then in Paris where I got the chance to fly more recent aircrafts (getting the EFIS variant), and where I did 1h of NVFR (that I really enjoyed, but I’ll come to that later). Today I have over 100h of SEP flight consisting of a mix of local flights with friends&family and over a dozen of cross country flights. I have passed the FCL055 VFR level 6 a year ago (funnily enough, that was before I knew I would be moving to london) which now allows me to fly in most places (although I haven’t had the time to fly across a border yet).
Besides that, I have been enjoying one of the 2 flight sim networks quite a lot where I have learned a lot about IFR. (which I think is a big help to any potential candidate to an IFR rating)
And here I am, freshly arrived in London. Having calculated journey times from my place (western zone 2) to the dozen of aerodromes in ""London"" with the kind help of google maps which made me realize that in any case flight time will always be shorter than commuting time; after having read here and there that one should be very cautious in picking the right club; being highly considering an IR rating, I now find myself with a list of interdependent questions on my hands.
Probably before addressing london-specific questions, the best is to take a long term view. Ideally, in c. 4 years, I would like to own a plane, to be able to go on weekends in Europe and possibly once a year to fly a longer trip. I say c. 4 years because I expect/think/hope/wish I would be able to make it financially viable at that point in time (depending on a number of exogenous factors). With that in mind for the future, my current plan for the year is to fly around 20h this year, probably a bit more every year after.
With that c. 20h a year figure in mind, I am having several thoughts:
1) going on a few more long distance trips (1 to EGPF, 1 to LSZA, 1 to EGJA, 1 to LFAT, 1 to LFOH ?), however it’s not as easy as it may seem (especially given the weather we got these past months) : weather must be VFR on the whole trip, club must approve a 48h booking (possibly the toughest if in the wrong club), plane must be ok, plane must be available… this might result in one of the trips being cancelled but that’s still very manageable. I’ll keep the french PPL (and would make a trip to france every other year to do the 1 hour flight with an instructor). And I’ll see later for an IR. To me it sounds very tempting to do this as it is the simplest alternative
2) Pass the NVFR rating (does it exist in the UK?) I really enjoyed NVFR in Paris and I would love to get the rating. For this, I must find a club with the right plane and the right instructor (which often are more expensive) That gives less room for long navs, so Ill probably be doing only EGPF and LFAT in that case. That’s a good compromise between expanding the playing field while not needing too much time (I only need 4 extra hours with an instructor). However, if all airfields are closed at night around london and if an IR rating does the same (does it?), it might be actually useless in a year or 2
3) Pass the EIR. (to pass a CBIR 2 years later) This is possibly the most sensible choice and a choice that I would also much like. However, with the EIR you need VMC at destination and departure (and you must be able to predict that for your way back as well which is a tough challenge), which makes it tough to use to plan trips I would assume. Also, would the CAA be able to deliver the rating on a french licence??
4) Go full IR directly (but what precisely ? CBIR directly? CPL-IR? get a UK licence?) Possibly this is still a bit above budget for me currently but I might be able to afford it later
5) Go to the US, get an IR licence there, so that in a few years I could be using it on an owned N-reg ? No idea how this works though… But the idea is tempting, just as passing over LAX at 2000ft in a cessna… :)
I think this is a question many of you have come across, after the first 100 flight hours, many must be wondering what to do next, especially as years pass by one has a higher income to spend (if no family yet) so a rather expensive IR becomes more accessible each year.
But now we must consider the other variable in the equation : London.
Fairoaks, Denham, Elstree and White Waltham seem to make sense geographically. But is it possible to fly to Schengen from these places ? That would limit me to the option1 above. Have you had good feedback about these places (PM if you cannot speak publicly :) ) ?
One good alternative that appeared to me is Sue Air at North Weald, which seems to be a very well run club with modern Diamonds and I like the fact that this is more for experienced pilots, while keeping the prices competitive. I would very much enjoy doing an IR on the DA40. A bit further away but well connected
Otherwise, if picking an IFR airport, that would be shoreham, southend, cranfield (still open?), oxford, cambridge I would assume ?
Or anything else as you see fit! :)
Thank you!
Welcome!
Lots of questions in your post, a few answers:
- you need the nigh Rating before the IR. The IR removes the currency requirements (although whether that’s a good idea or not is for you to decide). So it won’t be wasted. Plus it’s fun.
- indeed there are limited opportunities for night flying around London as most airfields close early; however White Waltham has weekly night flying and Fairoaks now has pilot controlled lights (though not the PAPIs, so here again you have to decide if it’s a good idea)
- you can fly non-Schengen to and from all these airfields, look for info on General Aviation Reports. Some softwares do it for you.
- of all these, White Waltham has the largest and most diverse fleet for rent. If you want to travel, having access to an Arrow or Saratoga will be of interest. The club life at WW is also nice, and while I’m not based there anymore, it’s hard to beat having a beer on the lawn on a summer evening after a nice day’s flying
I can’t help you on the French/UK license questions, although I guess at some point I’ll have to ask myself about the situation post-Brexit !
denopa wrote:
you need the nigh Rating before the IR.
Actually, you don’t. You can have a “day only” IR.
Sent you a PM
The IR is a godsend. It’s not an easy rating and takes commitment, but it opens up your flying in so many ways. And gives you confidence and skills. I would just bite the bullet and go for the highest rating straight away and not mess with IMCr and EIR. Save up some cash and just get it done in the shortest possible time.
As for airports, my info is almost 10 years old by now, so take cum grano salis: Elstree always had grumpy ATC. And at that time the surface of the rwy was in terrible shape. I’ve come to understand they’ve resurfaced it. Good thing about it is it’s busy and has a little bit of a community. Denham I always liked, but the rwy is pretty short. Never did land WW or Fairoaks, but heard good things about both.
Hello & welcome, I was in similar situation and I got some advice on this forum as well
1) I found this to be difficult with simple rentals unless you own a share (equity or non-equity), in most clubs 1 day availability of you*aircraft*family*weather is within 10 weeks time horizon, then you may have to cancel due to weather or fly mid-way and come back scared from marginal weather with all confidence issues that come later :)
French PPL is ok for one-off rentals with pay-as-you-go but expect commercial flight schools to drill you 2/3 hours on local and cross-channel checks before getting the keys, their own planes their own rules.
On one-off rentals, it took me one month to go for an afternoon trip to Isle-of-Wight and recently two months to make it to Le Touquet…
2) There is a night qualification in the UK but is not compatible operations in good value clubs around west London, but it seems you can do in in winter when it gets dark at 4pm
3) Can’t advise on full IR but if you are planing to stay 4 years in the UK, I think moving PPL from DGAC to CAA make more sense (it is just a matter of medical records and some quids) as you cloud get an IR(R) rating without much hassle
I use to fly from North Weald/Elstree, so ping me if you are around these…
Best luck from another froggy in a foggy land :)
Thank you for the answers!
Good to have some feedback on the best picks and the places to avoid. Looks like WW and North Weald are reasonably good.
Ibra wrote:
French PPL is ok for one-off rentals with pay-as-you-go but expect commercial flight schools to drill you 2/3 hours on local and cross-channel checks before getting the keys, their own planes their own rules.
I would actively seek a first flight with an instructor to go through the VRPs and the local procedures indeed, but I tend to be turned off by clubs where I would need to take an indecent amount of instruction hours… (especially as these are the kind of clubs that enforce asymetric safety regulations among their pilots and where being french in the first place could be considered as a risk factor ^^)
Do you know if there are other alternatives similar to sue air (geared towards PPL pilots with some experience, and not flying schools, where long hires during the weekend is likely to pose problems)?
You’re quite possibly right Adam, the EIR must be a bit frustrating in its use. Probably a full IR next year then
Welcome to EuroGA, Kaleidoscoper 
I will have a go at a few bits:
1) Club/School rental policies make long trip tricky everywhere in Europe except a very few places. You just need to structure the trip so you meet their minimum billed-hour requirements. In the long run, try to get into a syndicate. It will do wonders for your flying because rental has the highest possible marginal (hourly) cost and thus carries the biggest discouragement to building and maintaining currency.
2) Night is worth doing, even if you use it rarely. In practice most GA pilots lose the passenger carrying entitlement because that needs 3 takeoffs and landings at night and that is hard to maintain through the year due to early closing hours of most airfields. But for solo flight you can always use it.
3) I would not do the EIR. Almost nobody in Europe has done it; it is believed the total is in single figures! The exams are like the full IR and the result, not able to fly approaches, is basically useless for “legal” flying because in most scenarios you will end up flying legally enroute IFR (in the Eurocontrol system) and then doing an illegal letdown to land VFR.
5) The US route is not worth doing for a European resident who is starting his flying. The main reason is that Brussels is requiring European papers for anyone based in Europe, so you need to do everything twice (incluiding two medicals, although the 61.75 route avoids that). It remains attractive for the owner of an N-reg aircraft who desires the extra maintenance management flexibility and who is technically minded and proactive in managing a team of people who can look after his plane. I am N-reg and have been since 2005 but if I lost my FAA A&P/IA/CFI colleague I would have a much harder life. But if you have time and want an adventure, going to California and getting an FAA PPL/IR (will take you a few months) is great because you will have those papers for life and nobody in Europe will take them away from you. The PPL will be validated anytime with a BFR and the IR with an IPC (although the FAA IR can remain for ever valid using the rolling currency route of flying 6 approaches within past 6 months). I have various notes on this stuff here.
There is only one “IFR” airport in the London area which is GA-affordable: Biggin EGKB. However, the aggressive management at Biggin has just kicked out all based flight training operations, so it looks like it will be just a base for owners and syndicates.
Kaleidoscoper wrote:
being french in the first place could be considered as a risk factor ^^
My experience as a (very obviously to anybody I speak to) French apprentice who learnt to fly at Denham (PPL), White Watham (IMC, Complex), Benson (Night) and Wycombe (IR), is that as long as you can take the occasional gentle ribbing (), your nationality won’t be an issue; actually given the relative strength of the French educational system in math and science, your instructors likely will have experienced with French students who don’t need to be told stuff twice before getting it.
() jokes usually based on a very partial understanding of History. As I tell my English friends when they start going about Agincourt, France won the 100 years’ war, so what are they bragging about? It started becoming very funny when my children studied that period at school and challenged their teachers.
Kaleidoscoper wrote:
Do you know if there are other alternatives similar to sue air
I am not in single/twin glass cockpits yet but around London you may find non-equity groups for that at North Weald and at Biggin
- If you go for full IR, as Peter said Biggin is the only place around London to be based
- If you go for IR(R), then you have more choices around but more of go/no-go
Kaleidoscoper wrote:
You’re quite possibly right Adam, the EIR must be a bit frustrating in its use. Probably a full IR next year then
Personally, I will not for EIR unless I have access to an aircraft with unlimited fuel and I don’t care where I land, and if that is the case you can always find a VFR route :)
IR(R) + EIR seems as good combination in theory, not sure how much of it work in practice with renal fleet you get in the UK…
Besides, if you can do TK exams and already in ATO then I don’t really see any reason why not getting full IR in the first place?
The US route is getting less and less desirable as Peter mentioned, but it is still worth a look if you go there for other reasons (e.g. business, holidays) than just for flying and you have your own N-reg here in the UK…
