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Looking for an old UK CAA VFR chart (UK post CAS infringement procedure)

You always make it sound a bit like that’s the fault of the software maker. No, it’s the fault of the pilot. Someone who gets himself Skydemon or similar and doesn’t even fundamentally understand the way these programs work shouldn’t be using these apps in the first place, but use an old paper map and clock instead.

And no, on SkyDemon at least, on a clean install, the default will of course be that no altitude filters apply.

That said, I DO think there should be a warning popping up once you climb and approach the altitude that has been set as the cut-off altitude. AFAIK, none of these programs do that.

Frankfurt (EDFZ, EDFE), Germany

Peter wrote:

That shows the perils of using airspace removal above X feet in this program, which AIUI defaults to hiding everything above 4000ft. It produces maps which look a lot nicer than the CAA ones – a big selling point

That means that pilots using software are more likely to bust airspaces than pilots using paper charts? Is this why NATS funded the development of a moving map software?

I think the vast majority of pilots use moving map software and most of them understand it and do just fine with it.

I think you are referring to this:

Automatic Decluttering – Within the Mapping menu there is also an option for dynamic airspace removal. This allows you to turn off airspace above and below a certain level in planning and navigation mode. Don’t worry about missing any important airspace if you set it too low; when you’ve plotted your route all airspace at the levels you have set is shown regardless of the clipping level.

Its called an option, so presumably not enabled by default, but surely this is one of the items you set up initially…..Like aircraft parameters etc.

Logic would suggest that it’s set to operational ceiling.
This of course applied to the planning stage and different parameters apply when flying…as per the manual, which is always worth a look :-)
Edit:
Boscomantico said:
That said, I DO think there should be a warning popping up once you climb and approach the altitude that has been set as the cut-off altitude. AFAIK, none of these programs do that.

SD does warn of airspace above 1000’ before when flying …and the cutoff is level is relative to aircraft when flying.

Last Edited by PeteD at 29 Jul 15:00
EGNS

Anyway, none of this happened on my fateful flight… I was running the “gold standard” – the real “printed” 1:500k CAA chart as a GPS moving map. I just forgot to look at it for about 2 minutes…

It wasn’t a preplanned flight. On any preplanned VFR flight I am on the autopilot and flying a loaded flight plan, with a plog showing the required level at each waypoint. Such flights are obviously quite busy.

I think the CAA prosecution history shows that most CAS busts (and those prosecuted would have been only the most “provocative” ones e.g. a Red Arrows prohibited zone, or ones where the pilot stuck a finger up) were done on a deviation from a preplanned flight.

No, it’s the fault of the pilot. Someone who gets himself Skydemon or similar and doesn’t even fundamentally understand the way these programs work shouldn’t be using these apps in the first place, but use an old paper map and clock instead.

I think I’ve been saying exactly that for a long time… unfortunately your comment applies to most users of these programs (I have flown with a number). But airspace declutter is a tricky issue. It relates to how well the map is rendered; if you can render it well, while still showing the CAS vertical extent labels, then you can show more airspace.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

So if you’d been running SD, (rather than just a caa chart on gps ) you’d have had multiple flashing warnings, a “virtual radar” (vertical airspace depiction) and highly likely not to be having this discussion now :-).
Why go to the bother of loading caa charts into a gps when it all sorted for you with SD or other airnav specific progs??

EGNS

That’s why I am now running EasyVFR

Historically I have avoided these things because I don’t like the toy-like airspace depiction (the CAA charts are IMHO very readable) and outside the UK I nearly always fly IFR so the requirement for a uniform presentation over Europe has not been an issue. Also I don’t like the program terminating itself if you haven’t updated the database for a bit… one might be running for reasons other than CAS avoidance. And a few other reasons… such as this.

Also, as posted before, the tablet audio is not audible (if wearing an A20 headset) unless you take additional measures.

I find EasyVFR airspace depiction OK (labels readable) on an 8" tablet however.

As regards “unlikely to have this discussion” the reason for the original post was to highlight an unfair practice of rigging an exam to get people to fail it, by putting in out of date questions. It may just help someone…

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Skydemon posts are in a new merged thread here

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

So what would happen if you had, let’s say, a Swedish EASA PPL?

Prosecution or nothing? They can surely not put you through the tests…

I heard a german busting Swedish airspace a couple of days ago on the radio. The controller gave him instantly clearance without the guy asking for it and told him that he will have to report this. However, he told him, he has no reason to worry, this is just a formality for statistical purposes.

Not encouraging busting CAS, but I guess there are two kinds of pilots, those you have busted CAS and those who will. It is sad that your CAA is so harsh on you. This encourages pilots turning off mode C, which is hardly an improvement on security.

^ESM[ES]$, Sweden

Does the UK not have something like the NASA report in the US? For those who don’t know, the NASA report is a sort of get-out-of-jail card if you file it yourself after having committed some sort of infraction. You submit online, NASA (hence the name) anonymize it and send the anonymized part to the FAA. You get to keep a copy and a reference number. IF the FAA then come after you, you produce that report and in the case of a minor issue such as Peter’s nothing else happens. It’s actually a really good system, as it also provides a feedback part where you can explain why the situation arose in the first place and what could be done to avoid it. These recommendations are also acted upon and changes made e.g. to the ATC system.

So what would happen if you had, let’s say, a Swedish EASA PPL?

Somewhere here among the prosecutions lists is a pilot who flew in from Belgium and managed to do a high visibility bust of an air show around Eastbourne which had a prohibited area around it due to a Red Arrows display. I don’t recall the year and can’t look for it right now but I vaguely recall that they went straight for a prosecution and he was fined £5000. He came back from Belgium to face the court case (he didn’t have to do that but probably (?) would have been arrested on his next entry to the UK) and pay the fine.

I don’t know what happens in lesser cases but the normal procedure is for the airspace owner to ask the CAA of the pilot’s residence to take some action against him. I suspect that in most cases they don’t do much. I had that from the French DGAC, among very dubious circumstances, in 2003, and wrote about it here several times e.g. here. That I think is the pattern of how it works, but I think the airspace owner tends to be a lot more aggressive than the pilot’s own CAA especially if there are circumstances in his favour (e.g. dodgy airspace data and dodgy behaviour by ATC like in my 2003 case).

This encourages pilots turning off mode C, which is hardly an improvement on security.

For much of UK GA this is the default operating mode and always has been – certainly since the “Mode S wars” of some 10+ years ago. It does however tend to correlate with particular sectors of the GA community…

Does the UK not have something like the NASA report in the US?

No.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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