Folks,
I have a friend who is looking into a nice PA28-180 which has been parked in a dry hangar for the last 7 years. The engine has approximately 1500 hrs since the last overhaul which was in 1985. The airplane has been kept clean and looks quite nice, despite it having sat for this long so I would not expect any problems with the airframe itself. He can get it for very few money. However, I have a few questions as I am out of my depth here with engine related questions.
Comments will be appreciated. I am aware that this is a project plane but to me it looks like the one bit which might make or brake the deal is the engine. And I am also clear that a final verdict can only be given once the plane has passed a pre-buy inspection by a competent engineer.
My personal take would be that given the price he is being offered, it might not be a bad idea to simply overhaul the engine so he’d take over with a full 2000 hr TBO potential and no worries for a while. On the other hand, it may be possible to get the engine going for a few hundred hours without spending 25k Euros into an overhaul which might not be neccessary.
What is your take on this?
If it has 1500 hrs SMOH, I’d probably overhaul it. I have no comment on the 36 year thing, it sounds to me like another rule that people may have created out of thin air.
Seven years is a long time so the current condition will largely reflect the storage conditions. Its certainly possible to borescope and inspect everything, even ground run the engine etc before making any decision. This might be possible before purchase, given that the plane may need to be ferried somewhere else if it were purchased. In the US this would be no issue, you might even Annual it if time allows versus getting a ferry permit, but if this is Switzerland I can imagine a completely different situation.
The next step beyond that is to pull the cylinders and have a really good look before making a decision to overhaul completely. If the bottom end looks good with the cylinders off it may be reasonable to install a new set and run the engine for a while longer. This depends on the cost of labor for disassembly and inspection, the availability of a climate controlled inside work area and the required schedule. In the case of those items being cheap, available, and no hurry, you can do a lot more before making any decision. If not then the situation is less practical and its often better to bite the bullet and buy your way out of engine issues at fixed cost, or close.
I agree with the above but probably the main issue will be the cam shaft. As other threads have discussed, the bottom end will probably be fine for 3,000 Hours.
Who really knows? I’d be tempted to run it, do oil changes every 25 hours and see what happens. If they really monitor the engine diligently then it will probably give plenty of warning that it will fail.
If it is not making metal and it still develops full power during regular climb tests then the climb performance will indicate that the cam lobes have not worn.
Who knows, after the initial 50 hours, with proper regular checks, it might well be safer than the “new” 0-400 hours engine.
When I was looking at all options last year after my camshaft failed at 1800 hours I looked at the Lycoming factory options.I think 36 years was a figure mentioned in their offering where they will not accept an engine as having any core value.Because of that I had my engine overhauled by a U.K. repairer.It was at the end of its first life and it’s history had been totally known to me.I had flown the aircraft on its delivery when I was instructing for the UK agent for Robin aircraft.I saw a small value in keeping the original engine in the airframe.Knowing my luck I would have got an engine in exchange on its fourth and last cycle.On a previous aircraft I purchased a Continental factory exchange engine that I was not overly pleased with!Regards Stampe
I think it depends on how much this plane is going for.
My starting position would be to discount the price by an engine overhaul, but that (20k) is likely to render a PA28-180 worthless, unless it is a truly mint condition Piper-museum-exhibit piece.
If the crank is corroded it gets much worse – a Lyco remanufactured engine is the most economical way out of that and that is certainly more than the plane is worth. But you can’t tell if it is corroded without stripping the engine…
And indeed here is just such a case, prob99 due to it having been a hangar queen before they bought it, except that they had apparently spent so much money getting to the stripping stage that they carried on… One lesson from that one is that you can have corrosion inside the front of the crank (how – surely that is full of oil??) and you can inspect that by removing the prop.
The bottom line is that any plane which is worth say 20-30k with a known good engine is worthless with a potentially corroded engine.
The other view is the “live and let live” one and just buy it and fly it – if the engine runs, it will fly 
I have lost count of the number of people who did that – but without realising it I don’t believe in that view (as everybody knows 
) not least because somebody buying a 20-30k plane probably has only exactly 20-30k in their pocket, so any big trouble will finish their flying career, possibly for life.
Knowing my luck I would have got an engine in exchange on its fourth and last cycle.On a previous aircraft I purchased a Continental factory exchange engine that I was not overly pleased with
Indeed; most exchange engines are shagged – because most owners overhaul theirs, until it is too far gone. I went for an exchange engine 2 years ago but that was an ex Israeli Air Force one, freshly overhauled obviously by a top shop, not many hours before that, with all the original logbooks in Hebrew which a kind pilot on EuroGA translated
Amazing you flew the same plane 36+ years previously, Stampe
Sometimes you get lucky.
Someone over on Reddit saw a Cherokee that had been sitting in the open with flat tyres for a decade. Of course he bought it cheap ($1000) but it turned out to have really very little wrong with it, despite having sat outdoors in all weathers for a decade (other than very bad paint). There’s a good chance that he won’t get many hours out of the engine it’s got on, but he has at least got some hours out of it so far.
That was in the USA, and it would have cost him way more in Europe. Look at the $180 for a new battery Also some parts of the US are quite dry. Nowhere in Europe is dry.
This is somewhat related. The post there by me relating to a PA28 at Biggin Hill was also sitting there for 5-10 years, and eventually the oil filter rusted through and oil started leaking out of it. A friend of mine, EASA66 + A&P, was tasked to do a prebuy on it for a friend of mine. He found all sorts of dodgy stuff and then had to make a quick getaway when some people threatened him over being too honest (the owner of the bit of tarmac it was parked on was really keen to get rid of it).
There’s a good chance that he won’t get many hours out of the engine it’s got on
The problem is that this is not like a lawn mower, which just stops cutting the grass when it stops… If you have corrosion, you prob99 have metal around, the oil pump is at risk, and that leads to pretty a sudden engine stoppage. I heard of one of these just recently – into a field, due to a failed oil pump. Now, if you were doing oil analysis, diligently checking the oil filter, etc, and you did that before you bought it (before the seller had a chance to change the filter and the oil ) AND you never flew over water or mountains, that’s different, but how many people really do that?
In an SEP, it’s too big a chance to take – if you want a plane you can just fly to places, rather than hack around the local area, over flat fields.
Silvaire wrote:
the current condition will largely reflect the storage conditions
Well, these were good. The plane was and is in a hangar and actually the same hangar where the buyer wants to take over if he buys it. It’s one of these lost medical stories where the owner deluded himself that he would get it back eventually. It probably will have to be ferried as the airfield where it is hangared has no maintenance organisation on the field.
Plane is a Cherokee-180 Challenger from 1972, TTSN 3500 hours. The engine is the original engine and has about 3500 hrs total time and 1500 hours since the 1st and only overhaul which happened in 1985. The airplane has not ever been used for training or rental, it was always in private hands or so the seller has told the buyer. But looking at the TT this looks realistic. From what I have seen, the airframe itself is in good condition, complete and reasonably equipped for VFR, it will need a 833 radio but that is about it avionic wise. Price reflects the status yes.
An overhaul would be about 20k€ so if it is not necessary then it would be a pity to waste that money, yet the question remains about this 36 year thing.
Stampe wrote:
.I think 36 years was a figure mentioned in their offering where they will not accept an engine as having any core value.
Ok, I found out about this. 36 years after the last overhaul is a figure after which Lycoming will not consider an engine for core value, which means you can still get it field overhauled by an engine shop without much problem but you can’t send it for exchange to Lycoming e.t.c.
I talked to an engine shop this morning and they suggest sending someone there to boroscope the engine and to reach a verdict whether it has to go to them or not. He thinks that in a dry hangar, there is a 20-30% chance they will get away with maintenance vs overhaul. Will see how this develops.
Peter wrote:
And indeed here is just such a case, prob99 due to it having been a hangar queen before they bought it, except that they had apparently spent so much money getting to the stripping stage that they carried on… One lesson from that one is that you can have corrosion inside the front of the crank (how – surely that is full of oil??) and you can inspect that by removing the prop.
I had the same question when I was looking around t buy may plane a few years ago. I was told that as water is heavier than oil it just ends up in the hollow crank. I was also told that there was some SB where you had to inspect hollow cranks, ream out any rust and put a coating on to stop further rusting. Luckily I have a solid crank so it’s one thing that I don’t have to worry about.
I was thinking about Peter’s comment. Surely if the filter was checked every 10 hours for the first year and one was really diligent with oil analysis etc, a sudden stoppage would be highly unlikely. Ten x oil filters cost peanuts compared to the cost of a new engine and they might just get lucky?
Peter wrote:
Also some parts of the US are quite dry. Nowhere in Europe is dry.
He’s in North Carolina. I’ve lived in North Carolina. It’s dryer than Manchester, but not dryer than the south east of England. I would argue that the interior of Spain is pretty dry (the landscape around Zaragoza for instance is more reminiscent of central Texas than the rainforest).
