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Do we all need ADS-B Out & Mode S by 7th Dec 2020 in Europe?

Aircrafts exeeding 5700 kg MTOW or 250 kt TAS

Jean
EBST, Belgium

chflyer wrote:

I don’t know for sure to what degree civilian and military ATC are integrated in Canada, but believe they are independent.

In non-restricted airspace I believe there is only one ATC system in Canada, as in the US. Participating VFR traffic is integrated into that single ATC system in the US, but I think Canada may operate a separate VFR only non-ATC flight information system. That may be incorrect, I’ve never flown in Canada.

Canadian radar coverage is complete at the edges, but not the middle of their airspace, e.g. through NORAD.

Last Edited by Silvaire at 24 Jun 16:41

Clearly the military will maintain their radar capability. Shutting that down was not being suggested, and I don’t see how military considerations (foreign invasion) are relevant to use of ADS-B to replace civilian radar.

Integration of military and civilian ATC makes sense in a small country like Switzerland. I don’t know for sure to what degree civilian and military ATC are integrated in Canada, but believe they are independent.

Sure, integration of civilian and military infrastructure would allow reduction in civilian radar capability, but with ADS-B available what would it bring to civilian ATC? If it brought a lot, then civil ATC would already have full Canadian radar coverage which they certainly do not (assuming the military do).

LSZK, Switzerland

may well allow radar phase-out as that equipment ages and needs replacement.

I think this proposition has been through multiple “life cycles”, each one terminating when it is realised that when the [insert your favourite enemy] invades, they won’t be radiating ADS-B

If you want to get rid of some radars, while maintaining national security, the proper way is to integrate the military network with the civilian network.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

JasonC wrote:

chflyer wrote:

Yes, but tailBeaconX is 1090MHz with built-in GPS & diversity. Currently experimental, but STC pending (announced for mid-2020, but I don’t believe that). A very interesting product for under $3’000 plus control head (AV-20-E @$900, AV-30-E @$1600, or GRT or MGL EFIS …. Avidyne soon ?). Supports RS232/2400bps81N plus protocols UCP, SL-70, or STX-165R whatever that is).
They are approved diversity transponders

Yes Jason.

Only installable in experimentals at the moment, but the STC will follow quickly. I suspect that the tailBeaconX development has been driven by the Canadian situation. Canada will not build out a ground-based network similar to the US. Instead, they are mandating diversity to allow use of the Aireon satellite network. I believe the dates have slipped a bit but the regulatory rollout will be in 3 phases with low-level GA last, starting in 2021 I believe. Primary emphasis is on airline and jet traffic to allow reduced separation and more traffic. This is actually a win-win situation, as it gives radar-equivalent or better coverage and may well allow radar phase-out as that equipment ages and needs replacement. For GA, it might also allow elimination long-term of the mandatory ELT requirement.

LSZK, Switzerland

huv wrote:

I have only searched superficially, and not found anything, but if you can point to a Swedish AIC or similar stating that Sweden does not require mode S for IFR, then it could contribute to settle the discussion here. If it is not too much trouble.

For Sweden, AIP GEN 1.5. I’ve without much difficulty found the same information in AIP-Norway and AIP-Finland. I have not been able to find any information at all about IFR transponder requirements in AIP-Denmark.

Generally, AIP GEN 1.5 (Aircraft instruments, equipment and flight documents) is where you would expect to find this information, but AIP ENR 1.1 (General Rules and Procedures), ENR 1.3 (Instrument Flight Rules), or ENR 1.6 (ATS surveillance services and procedures) are also possible places to look in.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 23 Jun 17:38
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

I replaced an out of spec transponder with a Garmin GTX335 (ADS-B Out only) and continued to use my Stratus 2 receiver. This receives both 1090 and UAT, is never removed from the aircraft and is supplied with ships power that is set up to cycle on/off with the master switch. In the US, it typically displays traffic via Wi-Fi within a few seconds of powering up on my hard mounted iPad Mini, i.e. while still in front of my hangar, whereas the transponder takes a couple of minutes longer to determine GPS location. Since both the Stratus box and iPad Mini have a GPS receiver, there is redundancy and failure of the Stratus box would not affect GPS navigation (or obviously ADS-B Out compliance). Navigation is itself backed up by my phone, also panel mounted in flight and running FF with separate Wi-Fi connection to display Stratus traffic. The setup provides three GPS receivers for navigation and two displays for traffic, all running in flight. One additional WAAS GPS receiver is in the GTX335 for ATC and regulatory compliance, not backed up as it isn’t flight critical.

I prefer this set-up as it is more amenable to quick and inexpensive upgrade – I want the minimum of equipment permanently installed with the clock ticking on its obsolescence. The only downside for my purposes is overheating the iPad Mini while parked in hot sunshine – I have no overheating problems in flight but unclip and remove it when parked outside. I have no plans to ever replace or upgrade the installed GTX335, hopefully it will outlive me. It’s for compliance with FAA requirements only and unless they change again, it should not require further attention.

I’m posting this from my primary navigation and traffic/weather display.

Last Edited by Silvaire at 23 Jun 15:17

Ok I see your concerns.

However, I have to do all of that every time before my flight anyways. You need to have some kind of map, either on paper or digitally, so you have to unpack that anyways. Setting up the suction cup takes literally 15 more seconds. Pairing happens automatically for me. I also get airspace warnings and traffic warnings and runway threshold warnings though Bluetooth straight into my headset. That also happens automatically for me and I don’t have to pair before each flight. I still don’t understand why some people on this forum (not you) keep insisting that you cannot get audible warnings with portable devices.

Regarding charging, I set all of my devices to charge as soon as a return home so they are ready for my next flight. Again, if you have any kind of digital EFB you will have to do that at home anyways.

Regarding shutdown midflight, it never happened to me, but I think there is another thread for this discussion.

I’m not using UAT and I don’t think a panel mounted ADS-B in device will provide that for you anywhere in Europe, unless you’re flying around the one transmitter near Billund, over SkyDemon headquarters or seasonally around Friedrichshafen.

Another thing you don’t get with a panel mounted device, unless of course you want to spend loads of money, is FLARM traffic.

One more benefit of portable devices is that you can get all of that in any airplane. Of course if you own your own aircraft then the story is different and you probably already have loads of money to invest in panel mounted solutions so that is no issue for you. (I’m using “you” here in third person)

ESME, ESMS

Setting up. Unpacking SkyEcho, checking it for battery, charging if neccessary, mounting the suction cup, pairing it to iPad SkyDemon. Reverse after flight.
Limitations. iPad depends on battery and dies in heat/sunlight. And 4G does not work when it is connected to SkyEcho via WiFi.
Having a transponder with ADS-B in would solve all that, and traffic (and UAT weather) would be available on every flight.
And – range of UAT weather with SkyEcho is less than 20 NM, whereas it is more than 50 NM via transponder.

huv
EKRK, Denmark

What kind of setting up and limitations are you referring to?

ESME, ESMS
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