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Porpoise landing

RobertL18C wrote:

Land at the correct speed, easy to say, but is the main prevention tool.

Yes that is the plan but…

Last Edited by Ibra at 23 Jul 10:47
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Ibra wrote:

but what about keeping away from bouncing on uneven ground when mains are in “drive mode” and you are bellow stall speed?

I do not understand what “drive mode” is in respect of an airplane. However, an airplane which is flying below stall speed in any given configuration, is either on the ground, or headed for it not entirely under control – so, I have no reply for that question.

RobertL18C wrote:

There was a famous youTube of a Brasilian Cessna 180 being planted, with a capital P, in a wheel landing with too much speed, and after a bunch of PIO bounces it finally threw in the towel and nosed over.

Yes, I recall that video, what a waste of a good airplane! The key is the PIO. Though thread drift for a tricycle airplane discussion, wheel landings can be flown at surprisingly fast speeds, if you have the runway length, and are very precise to not PIO the plane! My local lake will freeze nicely, sometimes affording me a many miles long very smooth landing surface. That allows me to practice with both my tricycle, and my taildragger with all types of landings. I can roll the taildragger along for miles with one or both mains on, tail off. But, it requires very precise pitch control. If it begins to bounce or PIO at all, power up and go around, or power off and stay.

Ibra wrote:

You always have a different flying experience

If you feel that the flying experiences which I describe are always different to your, I think that’s a little worrying! There’s one experience I have had which I would not want anyone else to have (so I post my best advice all the time). Otherwise, for my 45 years of happy outcome flying, I would hope that most of my experiences align fairly well with that of other pilots. The core handling techniques of GA planes cannot be made to be new, no room for innovation, nor pragmatism. By now, if it can be done in a plane, it has been. Our job is to assure that we pass along to others our best wisdom and knowledge, so their flying experience is at least as good as ours. I certainly would never describe a technique in a post, which I had not done with success hundreds or thousands of times. The exception being for those bad experiences I have had, to warn a pilot not to do that.

So, I suppose I warn pilots not to deviate from the established flying techniques, manufacturer’s recommended practices, and approved flight manual techniques and limitations – and to never take your eyes off what your student is doing…..

Home runway, in central Ontario, Canada, Canada

An FI for 18 years, I would say that @Pilot_DAR sums it up well, especially in post #04.

I see student pilots as well as experienced ones tend to move the stick/wheel forward after the first bounce, thus starting what could become PIO and porpoising. And it is clearly unconscious, because they usually do not realize doing it, and often even deny having done it. If you bounce a little, just freeze the elevator for a moment and then re-flare. Like Pilot_DAR says.

I cannot see how coming in slow and nose-high would cause porpoising. If you misjudge and stall it down, the touch-down could be firm or even hard, but there is definitely no energy left for repeated bouncing.

Landing a Mooney may be a different experience from landing many other SEP types, and it certainly is less forgiving of excess speed than a Cessna 172, but the pilot technique for a good landing is very much the same.

huv
EKRK, Denmark

huv wrote:

And it is clearly unconscious, because they usually do not realize doing it

Hopefully only subconscious

EGTR

There’s also lag in this push forward reaction – the delay conspires to make it always when the change in rate of climb from the bounce is already negative, so it ends up reinforcing the oscillation (rather than the intention: to reduce it). So the oscillation ends up divergent, with each one more severe (and with less forward speed) than the last, and it normally seems to be the 3rd bounce when the gear collapses (which of course puts an end to the oscillations!)

Last Edited by alioth at 23 Jul 13:12
Andreas IOM

huv wrote:

I see student pilots as well as experienced ones tend to move the stick/wheel forward after the first bounce, thus starting what could become PIO and porpoising. And it is clearly unconscious, because they usually do not realize doing it….but the pilot technique for a good landing is very much the same.

Yes 100% agree, on landing mostly coming fast or pushing stick on touchdown

Even if you make a slow greasy touchdown on the mains, you will still have to deal with subsequent bounces or pitch PIO on a fast ground speed roll if the surface is hard and not well prepared, if you know how to avoid these you can enjoy visiting more airfields

alioth wrote:

and it normally seems to be the 3rd bounce when the gear collapses (which of course puts an end to the oscillations!)

I am sure we are talking about tricycle gear here not tailwheels
This Warrior made it to the 8 round



Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Grass runways can develop humps. A tailwheel aircraft into a gusting wind can bounce while taxiing. If on a crosswind, it could drift. I’ve done go-arounds followed by a go-away in a tailwheel after getting one wheel on the ground, while a nosewheel Bulldog, also practicing crosswind landings, had no problems.

Maoraigh
EGPE, United Kingdom

Yes tailwheels can land on any surface but will struggle to taxi on that surface under lot of wind, tricycles can taxi on any wind but will struggle to land on any surface on that wind

This was a day where I decided to fly the tricycle Mooney on bumpy grass and pushed the tailwheel Cub back into the hangar (surface wind was 30G40 and 2000ft wind was 50kts), note that the Stearman in background was doing just fine with taxi & flying in 25kts wind, but it was not me that day, takes lot of nerves to try that

Last Edited by Ibra at 23 Jul 21:54
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom
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