Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

The Hall of Shame (a Jeppesen, Garmin and Cessna story)

This is quite a long story I would like to share, because it shows the weakness of support we benefit from, sometimes.
Please read it if you have time to spare.

My aircraft was delivered with G1000, and in 2013, I decided to unlock one of the optional features called Chartview.

G1000 is able to display garmin charts (FliteCharts) from scratch, but those were not available in Europe initially. Optional Chartview, allows you to switch your g1000 from FliteCharts to Jeppesen Charts (when enabled, you can’t read flitecharts anymore).
To unlock chartview, you need a special SD card that can be used only once. Then it is locked to the G1000 system ID. I bought my card from a Cessna center, but it is highly possible that Garmin is able to sell as well, since they build them.

Chartview unlock was 3200.-€ + VAT.

At the time, there was nothing like georeferenced charts on iPad, and displaying Jepp charts on MFD, with moving aircraft, was unmatched.
Also, one nice thing is that Chartview was able to auto-filter the database and show « the right chart at the right time ». For example, if you had loaded an approach in the GPS, entering Chartview would immediately call the needed chart.

Since beginning 2021, the auto-filter and auto-load function has ceased to work. I realized it during an approach : when I activated the Chartview, I was puzzled, facing a black screen with stuck « LOADING » message and nothing else. One could consider this as not ideal, from the flight safety perspective. Afterwards, on the ground, i found that the charts could be displayed if selected manually. I thought: “let’s fix it”.

So, here starts a long conversation with Jeppesen, then Garmin and finally Cessna. For more realism and vividness, I selected some quotations.

First step was troubleshooting. It was a painful process, because I often doubted they understood what was happening. Here is an example :

Regarding the chartview.hif.sff file on the SD card with cycle 12-2021. That file is for a G1000 NXi charts subscription. Since the file has a modified date of 13 April 2021, it appears it was written to the card when charts cycle 07-2021 or 08-2021 was written to the card. You may have been set up for a G1000 NXi charts subscription back in April. However, currently, you are set up for a legacy, non-NXi G1000 system. However, a G1000 NXi charts subscription should also work in a legacy, non-NXi G1000 system. In that case the non-NXi G1000 system will ignore the chartview.hif.sff file.

In the end, Jeppesen closed the case with this resolution :

This is due to a limitation of 32 terminal chart change notice NOTAMs in Garmin GDU software older than v15.25. For cycle 13-2021, France has 38 terminal chart change notice NOTAMs (1 General Terminal NOTAM and 37 General Terminal (VFR) NOTAMs). The number of terminal chart change notice NOTAMS can change from one cycle to the next, which explains why the issue occurs one cycle, but not the next.

After months of trying different things, escalating the different levels of support, it was made clear there would be no success.

So I decided to try something with Garmin. Escalating the levels of support as well, I was answered they provided a solution with a GDU software update, and that it was the TC holder (Cessna) to release it to its customers. As I complained, I received nice encouragement :

I do apologise for the inconvenience, however this is an unavoidable situation caused by limited memory on that particular software level, however, I am glad to hear that the feature does still function so you are in a position to still display the charts you need, albeit through a modified method.

Obviously I was not glad at all, and requested a contact at Cessna, to demand a solution.
I also mentioned that safety of flights was involved, and found they took the problem very lightly. I requested an updated AFM(S) for the « modified method » but got nothing (obviously).

Then comes Cessna. IMO, they climbed directly to the top of the podium.

The only path we currently offer for meeting GDU software version above 15.25 would be to upgrade to NXi via STC SA01830WI per Garmin SB 1917. This will replace hardware in the aircraft and install software 2501.02, containing GDU version 20.05. Legacy G1000 software stops at 0563.26 for non-WAAS aircraft, and there is little business case to develop further software for non-WAAS installations as certification is costly and time-consuming. As Textron Aviation does not issue databases, nor do we issue NOTAMS, the issue at hand is somewhat enigmatic and outside of our realm of control. As I understand, the issue of chart loading will come and go depending on the number of NOTAMs loaded into a particular database cycle. Again, the only existing path to offer for this issue is upgrading to NXi.

Well, if releasing a software update was not possible, i offered two solution. Either upgrading my aircraft to NXi at their expense (so that I can benefit from chartview), either refunding the Chartview unlock card.

Please keep seated for me next answer from Cessna :

I understand your frustration, and it is unfortunate the reality of technological advancements have on indirectly affecting older systems. Transponder technology, navigational aids and other advancements in aviation can cause obsolescence of once fully-functioning equipment, causing aircraft owners the burden of mandatory upgrades and reduced functionality of equipment.

This is a unique situation from a company standpoint; in that an optional feature using 3rd party databases is functionally impacted by government issued information. It is my understanding that full functionality of the Jeppesen Chartview feature is now dependent on how many NOTAMS the local CAA issues in any given database cycle, which will remain in constant flux. It is due to this inconsistency of parameters that are beyond our control that we must decline the opportunity to participate in upgrading your aircraft to G1000 NXi. As the aircraft and the optional Chartview unlock card from Garmin are well beyond their respective warranty periods; I believe Textron Aviation has no available path for offering concessions.

I took a bit of time for meditation.

Then I said, I can’t accept.
If my problem is isolated (as they say, but i don’t believe it), refunding a single customer should not be a big problem.
If it’s more complicated than this, I said I should fill an Incident Report Form to warn the authority.

We are reaching the end.

Garmin moved a little bit.

I have had several internal discussions about the question you have on your Chartview functionality. The feature, when originally purchased, was done so through a Cessna Service Centre and not through Garmin directly. Due to this we would not directly be in a position to provide any refunds for the original purchase of the Chartview feature.

However, we do understand and sympathise with your situation, and would be able to offer you a free one time annual subscription to our Premium Pilot Pack which usually costs $1,289 through our flyGarmin.com website.

I answered two things.
First, the way money travels between Jeppesen, Garmin and Cessna when a chartview unlock card is sold, is not my business.
Second, I found « interesting » that in the end, the only solution was to switch from Jepp charts to Garmin’s.

Cessna did not move one inch.

I echo what my colleague Geoff has already stated that it is unfortunate that technological advancements have indirectly affected older systems, and as the aircraft and the optional Chartview unlock card from Garmin are well beyond their respective warranty periods, Textron Aviation has no available path for offering concessions.

I thank Alastair for kindly offering to assist you with a unique opportunity to explore an alternative current option and I encourage you to contact Alistair directly to discuss this further.

Please do not hesitate to give me a call should you have any further questions or require any additional information.

I informed the authority.
I publish the story.
Some may say it’s not a good idea to make ennemies.
“Some may say I’m a dreamer”
But I thought it was important the community could learn from my experience.

There is no moral to my story :-)

Last Edited by PetitCessnaVoyageur at 17 Sep 11:07

As an illustration.

Working chartview:


Not working chartview:


That’s pretty bad, but in the world of integrated avionics (where the equipment maker cannot upgrade customers without the OEM’s involvement) we’ve seen much worse, with entire fleets threatened with obsolescence because the plane manufacturer couldn’t/wouldn’t deliver an upgrade path to e.g. mode S or ADS-B.

There’s a lot to be said in favour of modular (e.g. G500 + GTN) instead of integrated (e.g. G1000) avionics.

EGTF, LFTF

I think this is a lesson to steer well clear of integrated avionics. Equipment costing 6 figures simply being made obsolete because the supplier doesn’t see any business case in supporting the unfortunate owner, who is simply left high and dry.

Andreas IOM

alioth wrote:

I think this is a lesson to steer well clear of integrated avionics. Equipment costing 6 figures simply being made obsolete because the supplier doesn’t see any business case in supporting the unfortunate owner, who is simply left high and dry.

Yes, but the problem is that the majority of the new (somewhat advanced) aircraft are shipped with Gx000 only and don’t even have a TC with non-integrated cockpit.

EGTR

alioth wrote:

I think this is a lesson to steer well clear of integrated avionics.

denopa wrote:

here’s a lot to be said in favour of modular (e.g. G500 + GTN) instead of integrated (e.g. G1000) avionics.

Absolutely. As an owner I would stay away from G1000 planes even if it stops me from getting the type I want. The risk of being outpriced or all of a sudden be declared “legacy and no longer supported” is much much smaller if you just have to get rid of a GNS430 or similar than find out that your plane can’t ever have WAAS or what is broken won’t be fixed. “Deal with it” is not an answer I’d take kindly there.

It also shows the big problem of a quasi monopoly.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

arj1 wrote:

Yes, but the problem is that the majority of the new (somewhat advanced) aircraft are shipped with Gx000 only and don’t even have a TC with non-integrated cockpit.

Am i wrong or would this possibly create a case for a claim against garmin for abuse of a monopoly?

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland

Very sad to read this…

are shipped with Gx000 only and don’t even have a TC with non-integrated cockpit.

This would be done as an STC. Lots of those have been done e.g. G600 STCs for pre-G1000 TBMs, and everything lower down. It’s a bit like the Jetprop discussion. Everyone says it is impossible to do on a G1000 airframe, but it isn’t; it is just not something most want to pay for, because you rip out a load of kit which you cannot legitimately sell to anybody (G1000 parts are probably worthless, except for people who can install them off the books / have got, or have hacked the dealer codes). The DA42 LPV upgrade is a similar thing.

Am i wrong or would this possibly create a case for a claim against garmin for abuse of a monopoly?

I am not a lawyer but if you could not get Brussels to act on this (and I am sure they would not; this is way below their radar) then this would be very expensive (6+ digits) to take all the way, and Garmin would just laugh at you while you were pouring in the money. It’s like VW are laughing at all the parties trying to sue them over the ECU software cheat devaluing all the cars… except in the US where the outcome was much worse for them. And I am not sure that a scenario where a mfg is refusing to support an older product is actionable anyway.

I am sticking with my KLN94 and if I go for LPV one day it will be 2 × IFD550. But it will be a while; I can’t even get an exchange TAS605A out of Avidyne, in the UK.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I imagine the support guy: not my problem, just sell it and buy a new one ;)

The mess seems to do with the size of the problem and how much juice you can pull from them? early buyers of make/avionics are usually 2nd class citizens 5 years after? same for one special client?

Even if there is a technical solution, the market segment for STC or modifications on this side of the pond is way small (even smaller now that CAA won’t even automatically recognize FAA/EASA STC), some stuff has to do with Aircraft manufacturers weight (Mooney & Diamonds did not have much leverage on Garmin unlike Cirrus, TBM…)

Last Edited by Ibra at 17 Sep 16:44
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

Very sad to read this…

Oh, life won’t stop here.

But I wanted to share the kind of answers you receive. A special mention for the Cessna guy: not naming him, a senior Citation representative based in Zurich.
Also, considering certified avionics, I’m astonished how little they care when a system does not work as intended (= as described in the AFM(S)).

That’s unfair to blame Cessna as a whole. I’ve received excellent support from the Piston Support Team in Wichita for years: Shannon Selstedt has been there providing good help. So, it’s not black and white.

Garmin, I don’t know what to say: they wash their hands, but, that’s the game, the DAH is the one we wait after. We all know that.
Though, when the DAH says there is “no business case for undergoing certification”, I wonder what they mean. Garmin provides the software, so I would be interested to learn more about what remains to do.

Jeppesen deceives me because they are a colossus without any adaptative capacity. Had they been able to provide a way to suppress the NOTAMs (I don’t need them on the MFD), it would have solved my case. They didn’t and don’t care much.
With some help, I’m trying to find a way to remove NOTAMs, without corrupting the database.
Take Sebastian Golze: he would have provided a new software by the end of the week !

Peter wrote:

I am not a lawyer but if you could not get Brussels to act on this (and I am sure they would not; this is way below their radar)

Not a lawyer either, but this is what I imagine, it will paint light green on their radar…

Ibra wrote:

I imagine the support guy: not my problem, just sell it and buy a new one ;)

Nothing less ! The matter is that I’m a second class citizen

Last Edited by PetitCessnaVoyageur at 18 Sep 20:51
74 Posts
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top