Of course; any new avionics wiring is a fair bit of work, especially if done well. And most of the time you get a plane to work on which contains decades’ worth of previous work, often done to a poor standard, and if your work breaks some of that, you will get blamed for it…
However, this would be applicable to this topic if the reason used GNS prices are holding up well because most of the demand is for replacing the same item which has packed up. I would think one can get the old GNS repaired by Garmin for less than paying some eye watering price for an old GNS. And if Garmin won’t repair it anymore then a W version should have the same connections, no? Or slide in an Avidyne box.
As far as I’m concerned, the upgrade from a GNS530 non-W to W was simpler than rearranging the panel. It was just less effort.
The big difference between the GTN and the GNS is primarily the better VNAV capability in the GTN, but that’s not worth it, is it.
Plus, I didn’t like the GTN650 I had in IFR flight training at all. In turbulence I routinely hit the wrong button and I didn’t like it at all. I don’t like cars who pretend to be smartphones – operating a newer Audi without looking at the various “smart screens” is a nightmare, and the same goes for small airplanes.
So, all in all, GTN only if I change other things as well, such as getting rid of the vacuum six pack. Or never.
EuroFlyer wrote:
As far as I’m concerned, the upgrade from a GNS530 non-W to W was simpler than rearranging the panel. It was just less effort.
The big difference between the GTN and the GNS is primarily the better VNAV capability in the GTN, but that’s not worth it, is it.
Plus, I didn’t like the GTN650 I had in IFR flight training at all. In turbulence I routinely hit the wrong button and I didn’t like it at all. I don’t like cars who pretend to be smartphones – operating a newer Audi without looking at the various “smart screens” is a nightmare, and the same goes for small airplanes.
Exactly, ^^^this. Explains it perfectly, nothing to add.
172driver wrote:
EuroFlyer wrote: As far as I’m concerned, the upgrade from a GNS530 non-W to W was simpler than rearranging the panel. It was just less effort. The big difference between the GTN and the GNS is primarily the better VNAV capability in the GTN, but that’s not worth it, is it. Plus, I didn’t like the GTN650 I had in IFR flight training at all. In turbulence I routinely hit the wrong button and I didn’t like it at all. I don’t like cars who pretend to be smartphones – operating a newer Audi without looking at the various “smart screens” is a nightmare, and the same goes for small airplanes.Exactly, ^^^this. Explains it perfectly, nothing to add.
Well, it depends on your style of flying!
For some people any cockpit is worst evil on earth, so they fly a paramotor.
For others – they agree with a plane, but they only accept steam gauges and no autopilot (“WHAT EC?! USE YOUR EYES ONLY to find other planes!” :) )
And there are people that want more automation as they want to get from A to B with the least effort while still controlling the plane.
Although I have to agree, that if your old device is dead and it was enough for your flying, the cheapest solution with the least amount of hastle and re-adjusting and re-learning is probably to get another GNS. Again, some people will add every possible device, for the others the joys of ownership are in flying, not maintenance! :) Does -W device require different cables and antennae to non-W?
But, if you had no GNS device and its time to install a GPS navigator, would you consciously choose any GNS device in 2021? Not so sure. In the end, the difference in overall one-off cost (cost of device, cost of testing if used?, cost of installation) is not that much higher for GTN devices.
arj1 wrote:
But, if you had no GNS device and its time to install a GPS navigator, would you consciously choose any GNS device in 2021? Not so sure. In the end, the difference in overall one-off cost (cost of device, cost of testing if used?, cost of installation) is not that much higher for GTN devices.
If there is nothing installed or it replaces an even older device then it depends on the situation.
I had two people picking up non-waas GNS430’ locally for a very low price and installed it to satisfy 8.33 and retain the functionality of the KY175B or similar they had, e.g. nav/com plus GPS. I think they paid somewhere around 3 k for the full kit including antenna.
WAAS kits however are so expensive they are not worth considering 2nd hand unless you are replacing a irrepairable similar unit or you wish to upgrade from a normal 430 to WAAS (which can’t be done anymore by Garmin.)
In such cases where a full install is available, replacing the box with a similar one is MUCH cheaper than replacing the installation. Installation alone can be up to the price of the avionic again.
With a complete new install into an empty panel it is certainly much more advisable to install either a Garmin or Avidyne new generation device. I would say looking at the price difference of a used GNS430W (of about 6-7k $) and the trade in’s offered for even broken GNS430’ by Garmin which would take between 500 and 2000$ off the 10k price tag, the newer box certainly is the better option, as installation costs will be similar.
arj1 wrote:
But, if you had no GNS device and its time to install a GPS navigator, would you consciously choose any GNS device in 2021?
Of course not. I (and @EuroFlyer, who I quoted) are talking about an installation with a GNS that works (or worked). Having been through a few panel upgrades in our club as the one who had to sign off on them I know that opening a panel is like opening Pandora’s box. That aside, if I had to, I would go for an Avidyne system. We didn’t do this in the club as we wanted to preserve fleet commonality. As an aside, the setup in the C210 I mostly fly works perfectly for IFR with a 430W and an S-Tec 60 and a HSI. I thought about the setup on a recent flight were the entire L.A. basin was under severe turbulence. I would certainly not have wanted to change frequencies every two minutes (standard ops in L.A.) and fly the approach with a touchscreen device. Hitting the flip-flop on the 430 was hard enough….
It will be awfully interesting when Garmin drop the database support for GNS non-W.
That will kill the market totally.
Not for a while I am sure… but they already aren’t repairing some % of them AIUI. To Garmin, a sale of a new box is worth (trade price) very roughly 10 years’ worth of a database subscription. OTOH, we don’t know what % of the installed base are buying the full 13 cycle subs.
I would not do a totally fresh install of a GNS now. However… someone doing that will also know they can slide in a GNS-W or an IFD, so they are futureproofed that way. They just won’t be able to get any money, not even $100, for the old box.
arj1 wrote:
But, if you had no GNS device and its time to install a GPS navigator, would you consciously choose any GNS device in 2021? Not so sure. In the end, the difference in overall one-off cost (cost of device, cost of testing if used?, cost of installation) is not that much higher for GTN devices.
If you already have a GNS, the cost of installation for a GTN is high, because you have to rearrange what’s below it, mostly i.e. a second COM/NAV like the KX155, maybe an ADF in some cases, and a transponder. It all has to be rearranged and rewired, and the panel has to be cut differently etc. In my case I had a perfectly working GNS530 and I wanted (not needed !) WAAS to fly RNP approaches; I also added roll steering and alt preselect. Works perfectly. Ok, doesn’t nail the RNP like a GNC500 does, but I do find the runway :)
A simple, non-W GNS offers 8.33 and at this time and day still represents the best bang for the buck, straight and simple, for VFR and even the occasional IFR flying. That’s why many pilots and clubs still buy them and that’s why they keep their value. And literally all flight schools and FIs know how to operate them. Why change a working system.
There’s one more aspect to this – not everyone needs a -W. If all you do is VFR flying and perhaps the occasional cloud break then a non-WAAS GNS is just fine. I think Garmin could do much more upsell to new boxes if they had made the new ones as slide-in replacement (and perhaps not touch screen).
As for discontinuing the DB updates – I can’t see this happening any time soon, the installed unit base is just too big and they’d risk a serious backlash. Of course it will happen eventually, but IMHO on a pretty long time horizon.
Peter wrote:
t will be awfully interesting when Garmin drop the database support for GNS non-W
That would be Jeppesen anyway. And seeing that they still support older boxes which are not anywhere close to as large numbers I don’t think they would do that anytime soon.
172driver wrote:
There’s one more aspect to this – not everyone needs a -W. If all you do is VFR flying and perhaps the occasional cloud break then a non-WAAS GNS is just fine.
For VFR there are much easier solutions such as a good app on a tablett PC or similar. IMHO for VFR the use of a panel mounted GPS is quite limited, particularly the GNS devices which are not really strong on VFR features. The only use I can imagine is if you want to fly GPSS routes, which then however would have to be based on IFR waypoints if you don’t want to program for ages. Also important to know is that most GNS boxes do not include databases for visual reporting points, which at least in Europe would be a must have for VFR flying.
For IFR at least in Europe, WAAS will sooner or later be a must have, as several countries have noticed the savings by getting rid of analogue navigation aids like VOR/ILS and never mind NDB’s in favour of RNAV and LPV approaches. And the lowest denominator for that currently is the GNS430W.
What I would be missing for flying IFR with the GNS-s vs the later models is to be able to file airway routes in order not to having to program 20 or 30 waypoints per flight by hand. Also I am strongly considering adding a flight stream device to mine to tranfer flightplans, even tough this would mean I have to switch from my trusty Eays VFR to Garmin Pilot in order to use this. Here again, the wlan capability of the Avidyne boxes is imho something very nice and I wish Garmin’s boxes came with that.
172driver wrote:
I think Garmin could do much more upsell to new boxes if they had made the new ones as slide-in replacement (and perhaps not touch screen).
Yes absolutely. I think this is the main reason Avidyne initially had such a success with their boxes, also with the DCF90 which is a great AP and slide in replacement for the S-TEC 55X. If that one ever got certified for the Mooney, it would be an absolute no brainer.
I agree with what has been said that the GNS boxes tick
