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Upgrading the GNS530 – 530W or GTN750?

You are muddying the water a bit with quotes including installation and GPS.

The Garmin G500, supply only (i.e.plus installation) is $13989 Link
This is for a product that does the function of an HSI, and an AI plus other instruments and an MFD function.

The Sandel HSI is $10,789 on the same basis as above. Link
The Sandel AI is $16489 again from the same place Link

That adds up to $ 27278, or approximately double the price of the G500

I agree you would not really think about a Sandel AI in a TB20 or similar, but you might in a King Air or similar.

Darley Moor, Gamston (UK)

The Garmin G500, supply only (i.e.plus installation) is $13989

You will never, ever, ever, get a G500 installed in Europe for $14k or anywhere near it. A dead simple job would be 2x that by the time it is actually done. Even for the USA, that Sarasota quote is a standard thing where they throw in some fixed # of hours (they are compelled to do that because they are not allowed to advertise a sell-box-only price) but no real plane can be done in that # of hours.

They used to advertise a box-only SN3500 for $8k and that is what I paid for my 1st unit. It was advertised as coming with an “experimental harness” for the US Exp market, hey ho, you get my drift The magical harness never appeared in the box, of course…. but an 8130-3 did.

A TB20 install time would depend on whether it has the two access panel under the front window, and whether it has the (GT) relatively easily extractable centre stack. Most installers don’t understand this and quote for the worst case.

The quality of the Sandel LED (SN3500, not 3308) display really has to be seen to be believed. It totally and completely outclasses everything else. It is a projection system which is nothing like any LCD based display. There is practically no reflection of incident light. They sell these products to the military, and into the upmarket helicopter market (where “our” sort of avionics e.g. G500 are rarely used). Even plain old glass instruments (e.g. a TC) are nothing as good, no matter how you clean them, once you get sunlight onto the panel. OTOH you get far less sunlight into a pressurised cockpit…

Almost nobody in light GA is installing Sandel products today… however I believe they miss out, and largely because none of the installers “push” the product.

I also think Sandel miss a trick in that they could so easily add a lot of value by putting an “ARINC429 concentrator” feature into their software. Currently, about the only thing they output is the heading.

Last Edited by Peter at 16 Dec 12:17
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I think we agree here, Sandel are quality products but behind the curve marketing and features wise when compared to Garmin.

However, you threw down the gauntlet on my comment that the Sandel solution was twice the price, and I think I have shown that to be true, on the evidence of the Sarasota web site a discounted G500 is almost exactly half the price of a discounted Sandel HSI and AI !!

I suspect either solution would be more in real life.

Darley Moor, Gamston (UK)

OK… you may have found that a US-advertised G500 costs $X and a US-advertised SN3500 costs $Y.

Firstly I think this is not meaningful because nobody considering an SN3500 is going to go for a G500, or vice versa. Unless I am missing something, they are almost completely different products.

It’s true that sometimes am irritating mechanical instrument issue (perhaps a recurring one) like a KI525 HSI going “sticky” is going to push somebody into a massive five-figure avionics upgrade. I see postings on the US forums all the time, along those lines. Obviously such upgrades almost never make sense purely financially – the cost of overhauled exchange old avionics is mostly very low and if built right they are only a bit less reliable than the glass stuff. The old 1990s King stuff was mostly very good.

But otherwise there is little connection.

The other thing is that the G500 is a far more complex install than the SN3500. The G500 is a massive job, both mechanically (panel hacking) and wiring-wise. I have just seen one put into an old plane – it took weeks. The SN3500 mounts in place of a 3ATI HSI – see my writeup. The “mechanicals” took me 10 mins with a file, with somebody holding a hoover on the other side. The electrics is basically collecting as many signals from around the plane as you are willing to pay somebody to locate and bringing them to the EHSI for display. Then if possible connect the (old) autopilot to its FCS outputs. I now have this

and all the wiring was done over a few days, during Annuals. In fact the RHS stuff was done in one long Saturday, with a harness prewired off-site. The RH panel was re-done off-site too.

So I think in the average 20-30 year old airframe, X will become 2X or 3X and Y will become about 1.5Y.

Plus a G500 needs a “W” GPS to drive it… the SN3500 will work off any IFR GPS.

Garmin don’t make an EHSI, and Sandel don’t make an AI (relevant to GA) so I remain confused on that one

If you are talking of King Airs and such, they are always big money. Socata charge $400k to fit a G1000 into a TBM. I see King Airs and TBMs all the time – in “my” hangar. By the time an installer has got inside one, it is tens of thousands in labour to start with. I don’t think the Sandel 4ATI boxes are significantly priced for that market. They cost way less than the outrageously pricey and massively-wiring-complicated (and discontinued) EFIS-40 boxes that dominate that market. Also you would be using a G600 and not the G500.

Last Edited by Peter at 16 Dec 15:34
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I have a quote for 2 x Garmin G500 (or maybe G600), and 2 x Garmin GTN 750; it was £75K for a King Air C90B, installed in the UK.

Darley Moor, Gamston (UK)

And by the way your installation is very smart,

Darley Moor, Gamston (UK)

It all depends on the current configuration.
With Peter’s Socata which already had a KI525 it makes sense to upgrade to a Sandel.
For any aircraft where your would have to install either a KI-525 systems or Sandels EHSI equavalent with SG102 from scratch, it won’t make sense at all.
It requires a lot of wiring and components all over the aircraft. It will cost a lot on labour.

Well on experimental or something it might be nice, if someone enjoys to do their wiring themselfs.

Starting from scratch, Aspen and Garmin would offer equipment with much more features for less money (installed).

The UK install cost of a G500 is something in the region of £30-40k depending on which GPS you put in to drive it and what else is involved.

Can’t believe that, maybe for dual COM/NAV/GPS, not for a G500 with single GTN650 for example. That would mean it would cost over £13K GBP to install? You must be in error.

Last Edited by Jesse at 16 Dec 17:51
JP-Avionics
EHMZ

SN3500 + SG102 are dead easy to wire up provided you can put the fluxgate somewhere easy.

5% of the KI525 wiring.

But as I said that is not a functional comparison with say a G500 which does a different job.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Sure, but on a new installation you will also install the SG102 in the back, and the flux valve is often mounted in the wing tip. It also can be mounted in the tail, but this is much more critical. You will have to install wiring all over the aircraft, which is time consuming. With a new installation you would also have to fabricated brackets for mounting, which costs money. It’s only a good option if it’s just as with your aircraft, than a KI525 allready had been installed.

JP-Avionics
EHMZ

See the SG102 IM, page 46 and 47. I would not call that “wiring all over the aircraft”.

It also can be mounted in the tail, but this is much more critical.

Out of interest, why would it be more critical in the tail, assuming the tail section is either composite or aluminium, compared to being installed in a wing of same material?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
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