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Operating cost (to the airport) of VOR DME NDB or ILS, and LPV?

And if you don’t have the GPS (IFR) approach … you’ll never get the business. First you have to make an investment, then you can attract businesses to come to your airport.

I think the problem is that most commercial operators (who tend to be lucrative customers in terms of landing fees) can’t fly GPS approaches, but they can all fly an ILS.

Also they can all fly an NDB or VOR approach whose existence may be almost useless (e.g. the Shoreham EGKA MDA is such that you could just do a DIY descent out over the sea) but it legalises their use of the airport in “officially IFR” conditions.

This is obviously why Gloucester EGBJ has just put in an ILS. Not LPV! Virtually nobody in the UK can fly an LPV, legally or practically. The figures circulating, from vague memory, for the ILS installation, are well north of £1M. However EGBJ has a very good (and wealthy) catchment area and benefits from the closure of another airport which had a lot of passenger traffic. But also almost every half decent spamcan with a radio and a CDI can fly an ILS.

And only a % of the private community can fly a GPS approach. I don’t what it is overall but where I am based it is probably only about 5-10% of the privately owned (including syndicated) fleet. There are some schools and I know for a fact that most can’t fly one legally or even practically. I think only one, an FTO with some DA40s and DA42s, can fly them.

Last Edited by Peter at 16 Feb 08:55
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I think the problem is that most commercial operators (who tend to be lucrative customers in terms of landing fees) can’t fly GPS approaches, but they can all fly an ILS.

You keep saying that but I wonder what your source is. I think it is not correct.

And only a % of the private community can fly a GPS approach. I don’t what it is overall but where I am based it is probably only about 5-10% of the privately owned (including syndicated) fleet.

Again, I can’t believe this. I have never seen an IFR aircraft for hire or training here that was not equipped for RNAV approaches. The IFR training syllabus does require them and they are daily business. Is the UK so much behind?

I think the problem is that most commercial operators (who tend to be lucrative customers in terms of landing fees) can’t fly GPS approaches, but they can all fly an ILS.

As Achim said, I guess that (above the aeroclub PA28 type aircraft), it is getting more and more the exception than the norm for IFR aircraft to not be GPS approach capable.

I guess Peter is referring much to those Islander type aircraft doing schedules services up on the scottish islands, the Scillies and the Channel Islands. Those aircraft do indeed look much like this:

Looks like it doesn’t even have B-RNAV kit…!

But: for german airfields at least, I guess that “business” (but non-AOC) flights (called “Werksverkehr” here) are just as interesting as AOC flights. They are the majority and are often flown in Kingair and PC12 type aircraft, so they generate quite interesting landing fees (and hangarage fees, once the aircraft will be based on that field).

Last Edited by boscomantico at 16 Feb 09:35
Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

You keep saying that but I wonder what your source is.

Observation

I have never seen an IFR aircraft for hire or training here that was not equipped for RNAV approaches

It evidently depends on what you mean by " IFR aircraft for hire". The vast majority of hire planes in the UK are low grade spamcans used for PPL training. Most of them have some combination of VOR or ADF or DME and in the absence of required approach approvals these can be used to fly any applicable approach. A few have a GNS430 but almost none of them have the AFMS etc so can’t do it legally (whether this matters is always going to be debatable ). The SR22 syndicates had all the gear but they have AFAIK all collapsed and in any case were £300/hr+. There is a small number of nice planes for hire from the FTOs, but one FTO I know has stopped renting out its DA42s because – they told me this – the renters kept breaking bits on it. There are also some nice privately owned planes available for hire – e.g. my TB20 used to be – but these are rare.

The IMCR or IR syllabus in the UK does not require GPS approaches. A school or an FTO doesn’t need any GPS gear. If the plane has a GPS, fully approved etc, the IRT examiner is entitled to require it to be demonstrated, but the FTOs tend to leave an expired database in it and then they don’t need to train for this. I have that from a well placed source, too.

I would say the TBM and PC12 fleet is all GPS capable. The King Air fleet is very variable. I see a lot of them. The private ones can be very nice. But the the AOC ones tend to be really basic and shagged, very high-hour types. Private business jets should be GPS capable, AOC ones less so, and 737 and bigger jets are often not (officially) GPS approach capable at all.

The Islander ops (pic above) to the Channel Islands are a notorious example, but somehow they kept going. They work IMHO only because they can safely scud run underneath almost any wx, over the open sea. There is no way they can do VMC on top except by luck and on a nice day. They would never work inland.

Perhaps things are different in Germany.

Last Edited by Peter at 16 Feb 09:42
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

The IFR training syllabus does require them

Which syllabus?

I did the IFR training on my aircraft and it doesn’t have a GPS approved for approaches (an EASA thing, the same installation would have been ok for nonprecision approaches in an N reg)

LSZK, Switzerland

(an EASA thing, the same installation would have been ok for nonprecision approaches in an N reg)

The procedure for obataining appraoch approval is quite the same for N-Reg. and EASA-reg. It’s not that you just bolt a GNS430 (or whatever) into the cockpit of an N-reg. and that’s it.

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

an EASA thing, the same installation would have been ok for nonprecision approaches in an N reg

Almost certainly not legal in an N-reg either

And perversely it is easier to legalise this in an EASA reg than in an N reg, today, in Europe. With the former, you just throw some €€€ to EASA. With the latter it is a whole lot more complicated unless the GPS has an AML STC and an AFMS authorising all that.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

The procedure for obtaining approach approval is quite the same for N-Reg. and EASA-reg.

Boscomantico could you specify that a bit more? I am wondering how to get the app approval for my KLN90B which was factory installed with all annunciators and switches on my TB20 (G-reg), because like with Peter’s KLN94 the AFM (year 1997) says only allowed for BRNAV not for LNAV approaches. However the same KLN90B is approach approved in
Beechcraft and Mooneys. So the other day I talked to a German avionic shop owner who told me that I could fly non precision approaches (LNAV) with it. No EASA minor mod or so required.
In the LBA list of EMZs I found the KLN90B STC for Allied Signal with the remark " for all aircraft that have been certified acc FAR/JAR 23/27/29 respectively their predecessors." (Alle Luftfahrzeuge, die nach den Lufttüchtigkeitsforderungen FAR/JAR 23/27/29 bzw. derenVorgänger zugelassen sind.)

http://www2.lba.de/dokumente/zuger/emz/emz-drehfluegler-und-kleine-Flugzeuge.pdf

Last Edited by nobbi at 16 Feb 12:23
EDxx, Germany

Sorry, I do not know the details for EASA-reg. I just wanted to clarify that’s it is not totally trivial in an N-reg.
However, if your AFMS says “no LNAV appraoches” then I guess it’s hard to argue that you would be legal doing it…

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany
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