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Latest on 8.33 requirements (merged)

Jesse wrote:

I asked the state of registery, who did reply with the question “What are these guys smoking?”

The Swedish NAA seem to have the same view on banning the carriage of extra 25 kHz radios. In fact, they have applied for an exemption to retain enough 25 kHz channels so that aircraft without 8.33 kHz radios can still be operated in northern Sweden which is almost entirely class G airspace below FL95.

I’ll try to procure a letter from them authorising carriage of additional 25 kHz radios — it seems likely that my club will want to have that.

Last Edited by Airborne_Again at 20 Sep 06:47
ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

It’s a small world. I think that Jesse refers to when he installed a GTN650 in the Diamond Star DA-180 SE-LLZ that belongs to Ljungbyheds Flygklubb. Then the Dutch CAA had this weird view that the KX155 should be removed since it was 25kHz. When Jesse wrote:

I asked the state of registery, who did reply with the question “What are these guys smoking?”

that would then be the Swedish CAA who challenged that view. The same CAA that you Airborne_Again commented on as:

The Swedish NAA seem to have the same view

Btw. I saw the aircraft SE-LLZ from Peter’s photos from Brac last weekend.

ESTL

Anders wrote:

that would then be the Swedish CAA who challenged that view. The same CAA that you Airborne_Again commented on as:

The Swedish NAA seem to have the same view

Indeed, if they are the same organisation, they would have the same view as themselves. :-)

Trivial in the real world, but not so much in mathematics where (some of) my students right now are struggling to understand things like

f(x) = y and f(x) = y’ implies y=y’

(“Since y and y’ are not the same, how can they be equal”.)

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

What is the current situation with 8.33 kHz channel spacing in Europe? Are there any European countries that enforce 8.33 for VFR flights where radio communications are required?

I’ve heard from an “important person” at our airfield that 8.33 is required now in Germany and that VFR flightplans without 8.33 crossing the FIR boundary will not be accepted. Is that true? That would be a bummer since many Swedish club planes would not be able to visit Germany any more.

ESME, ESMS

Just do a search for 8.33 on EuroGA and you will find lots of discussions about this, including here.

LFPT, LFPN

I went to a meeting of pilots today and one of them mentioned to me in passing something about the new 8.33 regulations that I didn’t know. I’ll come to that in a minute. The important thing is that if I hadn’t spoken to him I wouldn’t have known and then in 2017 my plane would have been (surprisingly to me) suddenly non-airworthy.

Where am I meant to look to find out these new regulations? The CAA knows I own a plane, as does EASA. Why don’t they write to me and all other plane owners, once every six months or so, with a short briefing of the new regulations that I need to comply with? At present I pick these things up in a random fashion from bulletin boards like this wonderful place, from magazine articles and from chatting to pilots and mechanics etc. Why isn’t there a central place that lists only what small GA plane owners need to know (and not for instance the new regulations relating to the tyres fitted to 747s built after 15th June 2009..)

Where is the place I need to look and why does the CAA not write to me ever about such things?

….And now what I learned today about the 8.33 regs: My plane has a GNS530W which is 8.33 compliant. I imagined before today that that made my plane 8.33-compliant. I learned today that it doesn’t. In order for my plane to be IMC-legal in future I’ll need two 8.33 radios, and to be VMC-legal I’ll need one 8.33 radio and no other non-8.33 radios in the plane. I therefore need to remove the very old 25 Mhz spacing King radio that I have in the plane, or to replace it with an 8.33 radio. I can’t just leave it there. Surprising …and I didn’t know.

Howard

Flying a TB20 out of EGTR
Elstree (EGTR), United Kingdom

I think 8,33 kHz has been widely discussed here, and at AOPA for example. I don’t know why they don’t write you about this, though I don’t think they would do that either for your house, boat or car.

About the second 8,33 kHz radio, a lot is being unclear. If you want to be safe you could have a second 8,33 kHz. There seem to be a lot of different interpretations on this by different CAA’s, on the same EU regulation.

Removing an working 25 kHz radio, in some cases even a COM/NAV without replacing it by a new radio IMHO reduces safety. Some indicate that the second radio still could be used on 121.500 MHz (which will not be converted to 8,33 kHz). Sure two 8,33 kHz would be most ideal, I can understand 8,33 kHz and 25 kHz mix as well.

JP-Avionics
EHMZ

Howard,

Where is the place I need to look

Here. Seriously.

and why does the CAA not write to me ever about such things

That idea would never cross my mind, to be honest.

For all details on the exact 8.33 requirements, Jesse is the expert. As an avionics installer, he might theoretically have an interest in the interpretation that 2 8.33 Comms are strictly required for IFR, but as you can see, he doesn’t strictly say so. There was a previous, more detailed post here giving more details. The regs, as usual, are poorly worded and don’t clarify how to deal with legacy 25KHz radios.

I wouldn’t panic and spend any unnecessary money now.

By the way, the deadline is end of 2017.

Last Edited by boscomantico at 26 Nov 18:25
Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

Thanks Bosco and Jesse…I do know that the deadline is the end of 2017, but my plane’s annual is in March 2017 and if I don’t sort it then (if indeed it needs sorting) then it’ll mean another longish time in maintenance thereafter. I’d rather get it all done in March.

It’s a pity that the regulations are not clear about whether I need to have two 8.33Khz radios or whether I need to remove an old 25Khz one. One might think that drafting the regulations so that they could not be misunderstood would be a clear priority for the regulators…but sadly not! We all see such things in many areas of our lives.

I’ll keep looking on here…

Howard

Flying a TB20 out of EGTR
Elstree (EGTR), United Kingdom

Howard wrote:

In order for my plane to be IMC-legal in future I’ll need two 8.33 radios, and to be VMC-legal I’ll need one 8.33 radio and no other non-8.33 radios in the plane.

There is no requirement in part-NCO for two radios. Also, where is the requirement for actually removing 25 kHz radios?

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden
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