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What determines whether an aircraft is IFR certified?

Jesse wrote:

So when the airframe is VFR only, you would install a GTN as VFR only as well, which also requires the placard GPS VFR only.

Thanks Jesse, so i would need to find out which way the GTN is installed and if the other Parts who were mentioned are done/existing. Then i would know.
But as the club board will anyway not accept IFR touring with this aircraft it does not really matter anymore.
They prefer people flying the TB20 for IFR… and also 100 Sfr/h more…. but , if i do the CBIR i do it and fly only IFR and not only 10h a year…..but then the cost would kill me on the TB20… so I leave it…. saves the most money…

But thanks… learned new thinks

Lucas

Last Edited by luckymaaa at 22 Oct 19:09

I need to check if a particular D-reg fairly standard VFR equipped PA-28 can fly IFR with some specific nav-equipment added, probably a GTN 650 and a DME. There is no question that Part-NCO is satisfied regarding flight instruments and “stuff”, but everyone seems unsure of what nav equipment the national authorities wants to see, and whether the aircraft needs inspection and a “IFR certified” stamp somewhere. The aircraft and its owner lives in Denmark. Does anyone know the LBE stand on this, or how best to approach the LBE to find out?

huv
EKRK, Denmark

huv wrote:

There is no question that Part-NCO is satisfied regarding flight instruments and “stuff”

That is your answer. Any Part 145 shop with avionics / pitot static capability would be able to perform the LBA testing. You are not stuck to German prufers.

The avionics installation should also be such that they are approved for IFR, and meet the requirements for IFR (FM immunity at least one 8,33 kHz) etc.

Last Edited by Jesse at 12 Feb 21:44
JP-Avionics
EHMZ

NfL 25/09 has not been withdrawn. And the famous form for the Prüfbericht still contains the famous boxes to be ticked. Hence, with a D-reg., you are still in the hands of the Prüfer-Mafia.

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

boscomantico wrote:

NfL 25/09 has not been withdrawn. And the famous form for the Prüfbericht still contains the famous boxes to be ticked. Hence, with a D-reg., you are still in the hands of the Prüfer-Mafia.

Sure that the document still excist and you still have to perform testing. However there is no reason why an other avionics shop could do this for you. It is often beliefd that only a German Prüfer can perform this testing, which is not true.

One other things is that the German system is often called very strict for this mandatory testing, yet it is very similair to systems in other countries, there is not that much difference between regulations as some suggest.

Last Edited by Jesse at 13 Feb 07:18
JP-Avionics
EHMZ

I know that, but what I was saying is that with that NfL in place, the Prüfer is still supposed to check and document whether the avionics equipment is sufficient for IFR use or not and that might turn out problematic, for example if the Prüfer is still convinced (or asserts) that two 8.33 Comms are strictly need for IFR flight.

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

boscomantico wrote:

that might turn out problematic, for example if the Prüfer is still convinced (or asserts) that two 8.33 Comms are strictly need for IFR flight.

That is in line with my uncertainty, and that is why I envisaged sending an equipment list to the authority (LBE) to get a written confirmation that this is ok for IFR.

Before NCO the IFR requirements here in Denmark included 2 x altimeter, 2 × VOR or VOR+ADF, ILS DME, MKR and 2 × VHF-COM among other things. Now, according to NCO.IDE.A.195, you could argue that a GPS could be your only IFR nav equipment, because if that fails, you could 1) ask for vectors or 2) navigate visually (IFR!) as contingency. I guess most would put the limit somewhere between those positions, but where?
Just because some equipment minimum could be argued, it might not be accepted, so it would be nice to have a written statement up front, both to show to the Prüfer of whatever nationality, and for general documentation e.g. for the ramp check.

huv
EKRK, Denmark

boscomantico wrote:

for example if the Prüfer is still convinced (or asserts) that two 8.33 Comms are strictly need for IFR flight.

Dicuss this with your prüfer, if he doesn’t agree you are free to change the prüfer. It is quite clear on the LBA website, that the LBA doesn’t feel that way.

huv wrote:

That is in line with my uncertainty, and that is why I envisaged sending an equipment list to the authority (LBE) to get a written confirmation that this is ok for IFR.

LBA on 8,33 kHz and 25 kHz as you can see, you don’t need a second comm if you fall under part NCO. In that case you only need one radio, and the 25 kHz radio can stay in place. The limitation is that it can only be used for old frequencies (such as 121.500 MHz) which will remain unchanged.

You don’t need a German Prüfer to test your avionics, A Dannish shop could do this as well for you (in fact, I have quote some D-reg customers).

huv wrote:

NCO.IDE.A.195, you could argue that a GPS could be your only IFR nav equipment, because if that fails, you could 1) ask for vectors or 2) navigate visually (IFR!) as contingency. I guess most would put the limit somewhere between those positions, but where?

It changed from required equipment from each country, to an EASA regulation, which basically says that you need to have what you need to safely conduct the flight. So If your going to fly an ADF-DME approach, you would need an ADF and DME. With GPS you might also take a look at your alternatives (as from alternative from your planned destination) and your alternative as what is required for a missed approach for example.

Then the equipment you need for IFR, needs to be certified for IFR usage (GPS including POH supplement etc), FM immunity, 8.33 kHz COM and so on.

JP-Avionics
EHMZ

Thanks to both of you for useful inputs!

huv
EKRK, Denmark

Jesse wrote:

It changed from required equipment from each country, to an EASA regulation, which basically says that you need to have what you need to safely conduct the flight.

Indeed, theoretically you could carry out an IFR flight without any radio navigation equipment at all if the flight could be safely conducted using pilotage.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden
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