Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

Certified ADS-B IN and OUT options (also collision avoidance, privacy, etc)

So, what exactly are the current equipment options?

One would expect Avidyne and Garmin to be incompatible… like the GTX330’s ARINC429 pressure altitude is incompatible with the TAS605’s input and has been for years and both outfits blame the other, so one has to run all 10 gray-code wires around the aircraft

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

I was at FL090 so would have picked up everything “within what Avidyne call 15nm” between 6000ft and 12000ft. So, either there is no GA in that band, or they are invisible, and for sure 99% flying in that band will have a transponder.

My guess is that there was nobody up there. French FIS is very good and used by almost everybody except from very close to Paris, and FIS require XPDR. The French pilots are taught to turn their transponders to C7000. I do not think there is a culture for turning off the XPDR here.

LFPT, LFPN

So, what exactly are the current equipment options?

Trig transponders or Avidyne AXP340 are compatible with the Trig ADS-B protocol

Last Edited by ploucandco at 01 Nov 11:37
Belgium

Jesse wrote:

The problem with Flarm / Pilot Aware and other similair systems, is that their is no system thats hold anywhere near lets say 90% of the market, which is needed for a system to be fully usefull. The downside with Flarm is also the small range due to the nature of the design using a freely available frequency.

Do tranponder held 90% of the market? Vintage aircrafts, sailplanes, hang-gliders, paragliders, (wrongly) privacy concerned people .

The fact that certified TAS system ignore SIL-0 is not helpful. It should at least be an option. You can always make the blob larger to represent the lower precision. In any ucase it’ll be way better than the azimutal precision of TAS. Yes there is the odd case where the uncertified GPS will give a completly erroneous position and , IMC, you might deviate for nothing but that’s overweighed by seing the other traffic.

It sounds like for the same money you better install a PowerFlarm than upgrade your TAS.

In the UK, the LAA and BMAA have very simple mod/process to allow connecting uncertified GPS to transponder. So I expect the number of SIL-0 sqawker will increase.

The argument for ATC is slightly different but a malfunctioning altitude indicator/mode C will cause as much trouble as a erroneous GPS position. ATC is dealing fine with the first problem. Also for Europe, the area of pure ADSB ATC without backup/confirmation from MLAT or PSR/SSR will be only in remote areas.
You could make the separation bubble a bit bigger around SIL-0 targets.

Nympsfield, United Kingdom

Do tranponder held 90% of the market? Vintage aircrafts, sailplanes, hang-gliders, paragliders, (wrongly) privacy concerned people .

They don’t but they could.

If you take the PPL training fleet, most of which is also used for rental, virtually all of it could be Mode C. But much of it is Mode A (see other threads; often the encoder is missing or broken).

The entire “reasonable performance” homebuilt fleet (i.e. RVs, Lancairs, Glasairs, all that kind of aircraft) could be Mode C because they have a proper electrical system.

In fact all of the above would have to be Mode S if somebody wanted to fly around Europe usefully, even under VFR. In the south, perhaps not.

It leaves just a very small % of aircraft genuinely without electrical power.

In the UK there was a Holy War over Mode S. It was poorly handled by the CAA and resulted in a widespread rebellion which continues to this day, with loads of pilots sticking their finger up (not realising or not caring that one day a TAS-equipped plane might hit them).

And exactly the same issues (cost, necessity for your particular mission profile, whether you want to be invisible) apply to ADS-B. In fact ADS-B is a giveaway on the (IMHO silly) privacy issue because everybody can track you. The authorities can, anybody with an ADS-B receiver can over a wide area and you can’t stop them, and FR24 can see most of the traffic. I know many people already fly non-transponder because they have Mode S and while on those you can turn off Mode C you cannot turn off Mode S without turning off the whole transponder. There are also significant homebuilt populations based in countries other than the country of registry and most of these are flying non-transponder… that much is very obvious from FR24.

This is digressing away from wigglyamp’s original question but it does still apply to whether ADS-B is worth paying for, in what would typically be a fairly high-end aircraft.

Basically I think ADS-B will be resisted (in terms of % adoption in the VFR fleet) even more than Mode S was/is.

If the certified Ryan/Avidyne TAS boxes (which are very numerous in GA, having been around for years) will only ever see SIL-3, that makes all the lower emitters useless. Almost nobody is installing equipment which can see ADS-B specifically.

Trig transponders or Avidyne AXP340 are compatible with the Trig ADS-B protocol

For SIL-3?

It would be useful to know the equipment options.

However it looks like Garmin are going to get most of the business here.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

If the certified Ryan/Avidyne TAS boxes (which are very numerous in GA, having been around for years) will only ever see SIL-3, that makes all the lower emitters useless. Almost nobody is installing equipment which can see ADS-B specifically.

But those TAS boxes also see the Mode-S reply anyway, and can show the target based on Mode-S without ADS-B – so what difference does it make, so long as people equip mode-S?

Adding SIL-0 ADS-B will at least have some benefit, inexpensive traffic awareness systems such as PilotAware that cannot do much with a bare Mode-S transponder can still show SIL-0 ADS-B at a tiny fraction of the cost of any installed system. If it’s kept relatively inexpensive to add SIL-0 ADS-B to your mode-S transponder, and very inexpensive to receive it, people may be encouraged to add it, when I move off mode C it’s certainly going to be something I will be considering.

Last Edited by alioth at 02 Nov 10:26
Andreas IOM

I was thinking more along the lines of somebody going straight from non-TXP to ADS-B. Is it necessary to get a Mode S TXP for ADS-B?

Can one fly radiating ADS-B but not Mode S? Or vice versa. Normally both would come out of the one same transponder, on current products. But there may emerge “cheap” ADS-B SIL-0 emitters which aren’t Mode S. These people will be invisible to higher-end GA.

I get your drift but I just don’t think any significant % will go for a partial solution. The same is true in any other business. Half-baked products just don’t sell. Say the bathroom scale business is 0-120kg and they cost £100. If somebody sold a £30 one which goes 0-70kg, no shop would bother to carry it, partly because a lot of people can’t use it and partly because the trade margin on £100 is 3.33x bigger than on £30. In fact the lack of a trade margin alone kills most business propositions which rely mainly on being cheap. The dealer/shop needs to do the same support on the cheaper one…

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Peter wrote:

If the certified Ryan/Avidyne TAS boxes (which are very numerous in GA, having been around for years) will only ever see SIL-3, that makes all the lower emitters useless. Almost nobody is installing equipment which can see ADS-B specifically.

The nice thing about ADS-B is you can see it on your iPad. You dont need complicated certified equipment. The US mandate will drive global adoption IMHO.

EGTK Oxford

I would not want to be looking down at a tablet to check for traffic. But then I don’t have as much room in the cockpit as you have; you could have an Ipad in a mount, not getting in the way

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

wigglyamp wrote:

EASA (and also FAA) require aircraft certification by an STC to ensure the data output meets the position and reliability accuracy for the data to be used by ATC for separation purposes.

We did that when we installed our major upgrade, the Installation of the Trigg TT31 with the GNS430W was formally included and approved by the FOCA for ADSB-Out. So is there something else in the pipeline and if so, why?

Personally, I think ADSB-Out at least ist a very good thing to have and should be made as easily and inexpensively available as possible. It would be a major incentive for people to install traffic view devices which can read ADSB and therefore have adequate warnings. From what I hear, airlines are strongly considering this as well after a few very close calls in recent years. If it’s inexpensive and unbureaucratic then a lot of folk will do it. If it is a major expense, people will stall and it will end up as again a unwanted and opposed compulsory requirement which then will again have dozens of exceptions. If one of those hits you on the way, the whole exercise was for nothing.

My vision would be that by 2020 or so each flying machine of whatever nature is required by law to carry a transponder/ADSB-OUT device which allows it to be seen on equally required traffic monitors. That would most probably be the end of mid airs. But that will require that it can be done at a cost which people are willing to accept.

LSZH(work) LSZF (GA base), Switzerland
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top