Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

Initial questions on the purchase of a TB 20 / 21

It does amaze me how many sellers are looking for a complete idiot.

One example is selling a TB20 affected by the crank AD which is according to Lyco is legally grounded and hope the buyer doesn't notice.

The best one I know of was a PA28 parked for 9 years with a 6 year expired CofA for £40k. The A&P did not get a pleasant reception when doing the prebuy.

But people do the same with cars all the time.

One issue is that almost no engineer knows anything about avionics so a novice buyer has no way to check one of the biggest gotchas.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

At least everything is under EASA control through form 1s, CAMO and part 145 approvals. What could possibly go wrong?

Thing doesn't work? Well, it does according to the paperwork so you're obviously an idiot...

ESSB, Stockholm Bromma

A lot of the sellers are bogus sellers, not looking for a deal. Just put the aircraft online and see if an idiot comes by. If I ask questions and they don't answer them diligently and promptly, I won't proceed. A detailed question list shows that you're serious and if the other side needs to be motivated to engage in a sales process, you don't want to buy from them.

Out of interest have you spoken to any of these sellers or just sent the list to them in response to their online ads?

EGTK Oxford

If it is an EASA aircraft any components recommended for change by the manufacturer based on calender time were made mandatory so you may also wish to check what has been done. EASA have issued NPA 2011-15 to rescind this stupid rule but the paperwork has disappeared into the EU snake pit not to be seen again.

If it's N reg your are not affected by this.

Gloucester UK (EGBJ)

Thanks for the additional comments.

JasonC - talked to 2 of the sellers. We've tried 4-5 basic questions first, if not answered in the ad, searched reg. databases if available, then, if still interesting, the full list (with some additions) mentioned in the first post.

Swanborough Farm (UK), Shoreham EGKA, Soysambu (Kenya), Kenya

At least everything is under EASA control through form 1s, CAMO and part 145 approvals.

One needs an emoticon for a tongue in cheek

The worst bodges I have ever had done to my plane were done by an EASA145, EASA21, EASA Part X and Y, FAA145 company, and very recently too. When I found the extent of it I decided to do the Annual before further significant flight, so the whole plane could be inspected.

As I said before, a lot of maintenance records (especially ones done away from base) are done as a logbook insert, so it's easy to dispose of incriminating material when selling. And that assumes the maintenance firm didn't do the work off the books, in collusion with the owner.

A lot of the sellers are bogus sellers, not looking for a deal

Actually that is true in two ways.

A lot of sellers price high, looking for an idiot. And perhaps some of them put the plane for sale to make it look like they are selling. One man I know was told to sell his plane, by his bank, as a condition of them giving his business a loan (I think that is outrageous). I see TB20GTs for sale for €200k - priced to never sell.

But there are also scams. A certain TB20GT was for sale for a while, and the seller wanted £10k as a deposit for allowing someone to view it. I won't post the reg openly because I don't know the full circumstances (I was asked by several potential buyers to give a view on the spec) but one curious thing was that the seller claimed it was based at Heathrow (EGLL). Since EGLL bans SE ops, this was obviously hugely unlikely but not impossible since some private PA28(s) are based at Farnborough, and I used to know a bloke who used to fly a PC12 into EGLL. Anyway, eventually somebody managed to contact the real owner on a different email who indignantly said it was never for sale. But the matter was full of ambiguity and I was not at all sure it was not the same seller all along. But that completely outrageous 10k fee is not all that uncommon - presumably because aviation is full of time wasters who dream of having a plane, and if you are trying to sell for say 150k then you don't want any of those. What reportedly happens a lot is that people want demo flights, which is a time waster.

The other side is that only an idiot will buy a used plane without a demo flight, not least because avionics needs checking out.

If it's N reg your are not affected by this

Not wholly true. Under N-reg there are few life limits on light piston planes, but those stated in the Airworthiness section of the POH must still be respected.

Also component life limits may be relevant on e.g. a registry transfer. If you go G to N then the engine must not be over 12 years (AFAIK).

As regards sellers not answering 2 greens' very basic questions, they are either not interested in "detail matters in life" (which is quite common; loads of people fly a plane with a Shadin fuel totaliser without ever using it, for example - such is the legacy of the PPL training system which does not equip those with money to get much use from whatever they buy post-PPL) or they have something to hide.

But we still have the wider issue, which I find frustrating in business too, which is that many people are incapable of reading past the first line of an email, so sending them an email of say 30 lines is a complete waste of time. I know intelligent men, in aviation and elsewhere, who are reading their emails on a proper PC, who are completely articulate in verbal (phone) communication, but who are incapable of writing an email which clearly answers say 5 questions. Many of them will type 5 answers without realising their replies are useless and just generate yet another email (which then pisses them off, which is why the average tech support contact will cut you off after several emails asking the same thing). I am not sure why this is; I suspect that - in the same way that Cirrus' marketing has uncovered a new stratum of customers - email has thrust a whole stratum of semi-illiterate people into jobs where they are now open to ridicule, whereas previously they might have conducted their life on the phone where any ambiguity is sorted immediately. Anyway that's my rant

I think the way to do this is to perservere. At this level you want a quality aircraft and somebody who can't answer the basic questions probably didn't give a damn about it. It may help to phone up instead of emailing, but there are very few questions which any bona fide seller of a TB20 won't be able to answer straight off and will need to ask his maintenance outfit about. Also plan on the pre-buy being an Annual-level visual inspection (1 or 2 days' work) and yes that does make it harder to buy something from a different country because you have to transport your engineer out there.

I would rather buy a plane which needs work done and which is discounted by that amount, than one which appears to be perfect. Especially with the engine; a plane with a theoretically shagged engine (say 1900hrs) but discounted by 30k is the best thing because you get a chance to end up with a known quantity up front where it really matters.

Things like avionics issues will never be verifiable because people can so easily chuck away the logbook inserts. But the only thing in that department is the KFC225, on a TB20GT.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Also component life limits may be relevant on e.g. a registry transfer. If you go G to N then the engine must not be over 12 years (AFAIK).

FWIW I've not heard of such a thing for an aircraft to be operated on N-register under Part 91.

I've not heard of such a thing for an aircraft to be operated on N-register under Part 91

Not for operation; agreed.

I could be wrong but I recall an FAA DAR can refuse the transfer to N if engine life limits are exceeded. This is only a warning to anybody thinking of doing that, to check this out, just in case. I have more general notes here.

For a fact, you cannot move a plane to G if the engine is past 12 years, even though you can go past 12 years on non-AOC private ops on a G.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
19 Posts
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top