I am considering installing a GTN 650 in my G-reg C172 later next year, along with some other (yet to be finalised) panel changes. Although I know I’ve left things rather late, I thought I might try and buy the GTN 650 before the end of the year to take advantage of the CAA 20% rebate offer.
Upon investigation I find the GTN 650 can only be sold as a ‘box’ if it’s destined for a permit aircraft. For certificated aircraft it must be sold and installed by a Garmin ‘airside dealer’. I am far from ready to select an installer (I am a novice pilot/owner) without further research, and my aircraft is based overseas (EU) at the moment so I might wish to use a non-UK installer.
I am assuming there is no difference at all between a GTN 650 sold for a certificated aircraft and for a permit aircraft. Is there any way I can obtain a new stand-alone GTN 650 in a box for future installation without committing now to an installer, or should I abandon the notion as futile?
Chris
PS: I would prefer a cheaper good used unit, but I haven’t seen any. Presumably Garmin couldn’t stop me buying a second user unit for future installation in a certificated aircraft.
There is a GTN650 under Classifieds.
As you say you can’t officially buy a lot of certified boxes direct; they can be supplied only installed by a dealer. In practice just about all the Honeywell/King stuff has been available direct for many years (via e.g. here) and there is a lot of scary stuff going around concerning warranty and “illegal installations unless done by a dealer” e.g. this (and that link contains some stuff about buying avionics for homebuilts).
In reality any qualified person can install the equipment provided it can be signed off as required by the applicable certification authority. I know a freelance installer who has done vast numbers of GNS etc boxes, mostly in G-regs, under the authority of the maintenance company whose hangar he worked in. Restricting the STC to dealers-only would block that but I don’t think Garmin do that and IMHO it would be an illegal practice in Europe.
It’s interesting the CAA give a 20% grant towards a whole GTN box, even though the VHF comms function is only a part of it.
Thanks for the helpful info and links Peter. It’s bad enough trying to understand the formal rules and regulations, let alone the real-world practicalities.
I conclude the only way someone could buy a new stand-alone ‘box’ would be for a permit/experimental aircraft (would it come with a Form 1/8130-3?). It would then only be warranted if it was later installed by a Garmin dealer, who would not install a ‘free issue’ box in a certificated aircraft. It could be installed by a non-Garmin-dealer suitably qualified installer (STC permits this) but there would be no Garmin warranty or support.
(I am not against using a Garmin dealer, but doing so means I can’t purchase the unit by the rebate deadline as I’m not willing to commit to a particular dealer with my current – lack of – knowledge.)
What do people typically do regarding installation of used Garmin GPS units? The one listed in your classifieds, for instance. I think the used unit has to be accompanied by a Form 1 issued by the (un)installer. Would it then still have to be installed by a dealer to get support?
I conclude the only way someone could buy a new stand-alone ‘box’ would be for a permit/experimental aircraft (would it come with a Form 1/8130-3?). It would then only be warranted if it was later installed by a Garmin dealer, who would not install a ‘free issue’ box in a certificated aircraft. It could be installed by a non-Garmin-dealer suitably qualified installer (STC permits this) but there would be no Garmin warranty or support.
In the USA (by far the biggest homebuilt market, and most can fly IFR and they need IFR GPS boxes for that) there is an official channel whereby you can buy the unit direct from (say) Garmin. I recall posts on a US forum from a Garmin rep about this. It was difficult to get him to post details, for obvious reasons, but IIRC he wanted details of the aircraft. Such a unit does not need to come with an 8130-3 but in practice they usually do (I bought my first Sandel SN3500 with an “experimental harness” but actually there was an 8130-3 and no harness 
).
What do people typically do regarding installation of used Garmin GPS units? The one listed in your classifieds, for instance. I think the used unit has to be accompanied by a Form 1 issued by the (un)installer. Would it then still have to be installed by a dealer to get support?
If it has never been installed, the EASA-1 form (if it is a European box) or the 8130-3 form (if bought in the USA) should still be with it. Once it has been installed, the form tends to “disappear” so it cannot be re-used. It should however end up in the installation work pack, which is the aircraft owner’s property, and sometimes these forms get included with used boxes. But that isn’t legal AFAIK. And an 8130-3 is not legal for a used item going onto an EASA-reg plane… It is easier on an N-reg because the 8130-3 is good for even a used item, and anyway the 8130-3 is not required (for Part 91) because an A&P can declare a part airworthy or not.
I have no idea what warranty policy Garmin operates in Europe. Nobody from them posts here AFAIK but they clearly read EuroGA because they regularly contact the admins regarding advertising.
The other thing to remember is that a dealer gets a discount of some 25% so on a box costing say 10k he gets 2.5k just for supplying it. If the installation is quoted at say 3k then he makes 5.5k. If however you buy the unit yourself and later free-issue the unit to another installer, the supplying dealer makes the 2.5k and the installer will now bill you for the 5.5k which he is looking for so the whole job will have cost you 2.5k more
If you have “connections” you can certainly buy these boxes off the dealer channel. Usually this is from a friendly dealer who just sticks a bit on top of his buy price. The problem is that he won’t be keen on processing warranty issues since he made so little on it. So you take a chance on it not needing a warranty repair, in exchange for having got it cheaper. However, due to the paragraph above, this process makes sense only if you are going to install it yourself, or get someone to do it very cheaply.
I looked at doing a 650+750 or 2×IFD540 installation a while ago, which I could do myself (under A&P supervision of course) and under the AML STC it would be legal (I am N-reg). I was going to buy the boxes via a “contact” and basically forget any warranty. It takes a lot of balls to forget the warranty on stuff which costs this much, and QA issues are a big thing in this business. Unless you could maintain the “I am a homebuilt” pretence, you cannot return the unit direct to Garmin. It has to go back via a dealer…
The above is my understanding. If you are a certified EASA-reg then you have few options.
Thanks. So, focussing on a used unit where warranty isn’t an issue (because there isn’t any!), what airworthiness paperwork do I need to satisfy the authorities and the installer?
From previous research I think this has to be either: a) a Form 1 from the approved person who removed the unit stating it was serviceable when removed; or b) a Form 1 from an approved avionics shop stating it was tested (or inspected?) and declared ‘S’.
I guess the only ‘approved avionics shops’ will be Garmin dealers with the GTN 650 on their capability list.
I’ve never heard of Garmin welshing on a warranty, and I can’t believe they would ever try. They sell good stuff and customer service – not cheap, but good. Can you imagine them defending a warranty claim in open court? They might as well put a match to a whole year’s UK advertising budget.
My usual electromagician was happy to install a GNS 530W (years ago, before the GNS boxes became obsolete) and more recently a GTN650, GTX330 and GMA350, all bought new elsewhere. I don’t think he charged anything like £2k to install those three, including ripping out a bunch of 1990s aero jumble. When a GPS antenna failed a few months later, there was no hesitation. It was replaced completely free of charge while I (perhaps bravely) drank a cup of Essex workshop tea.
I am sure Garmin would not do that. However, the Q is whether they would insist on the item being returned via a Garmin dealer. Probably not, otherwise anything installed off the dealer chain would have no warranty on it, which cannot be the case.
