Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

KFC225 pitch oscillation, alternate static error, and static tube internal diameter

In gliders, we use mainly PVC tubing. 5mm inner diameter.
Where more flexibility is required, silicon is used.
Example at this UK supplier but there is a lot of other places like Halfords, pet shop (aquariums), internet, …
We locak the pipe on the fitting either with a lamb castration ring or a bit of locking wire.

I don’t think the diameter of the pipe is important. The flow of air is small (only the rate of climb/vario need a flow). I recently visted the wind tunnel at work. The pressure line to instrument the model were tiny, in the order of 0.75mm OD.

Nympsfield, United Kingdom

Looking at some of the current catalog (page 3), the 6 in the reference number may well indicate a 6mm inner diameter.

Nympsfield, United Kingdom

local copy

Thank you Xtophe, I am sure you are right about the 6mm and my memory is poor.

The pipe diameter must be important within some limits. Consider both extremes; it is obvious neither will work. What I don’t know is what range is ok if you want an acceptable propagation delay for any pressure change, for the instruments to not lag excessively, and for the autopilot baro functions to work. If one is not worried about the propagation delay, then any internal diameter bigger than an air molecule will work

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
I am quite sure the i.d. does not matter at all – if you do not go below 1mm . The air volume and speed within the hose is minimal and e.g. a 20 mm i.d. would not matter as well, you just shift a tiny bit of air that is in the instrument behind its diaphragm one way or the other along the hose. Remember a manometer tuning set for carb balancing on the suction side of the engine. They put an extra adjustable fine choke into the plastic hoses (4mm i.d. typical) to get some damping for the clocks for the very rapid pulses there. In your case the change in pressure and volume in the system is comparably minimal and very slow and not your real problem . I´d look for backlash in linkages, friction effects somewhere , or electronic settings elsewhere – no idea about that. Anyway, I´d just get clear PVC hoses, 4 mm i.d. or smaller plus suitable plastc fittings. Silicone hoses are easily cut by edges, for long distances even polyamide hoses and fittings from the industrial pneumatic supply would do. Vic
vic
EDME

You picked my curiosity so I had to research it.
We speaking about the speed a pressure signal goes through a pipe i.e. the speed of sound in a pipe.
https://neutrium.net/fluid_flow/speed-of-sound-in-fluids-and-fluid-in-pipes/ provides the formula.

PVC is at least 10,000 times stiffer than the air (1.5 e9 Pa vs 140 e3 Pa). So we are in a rigid pipe. So pipe diameter has no influence.

If the pipe is only 10 time stiffer than the air, then you start seeing change in the speed of sound and the pipe diameter (at constant wall thickness) start having effect.

So considering the material and practical diameters available to us, we are very far from the limits

Last Edited by Xtophe at 12 Dec 20:55
Nympsfield, United Kingdom

I fully accept that the propagation time for a “wavefront” will be according to the speed of sound and thus independent of the pipe diameter, but in this case we are looking for how rapidly a steady state is achieved at the far end – for that is what say an altimeter is measuring. I think this is viscosity limited at the bottom end of the diameter range. Also, while my intuition does not help me with small diameters (say 1mm) it is intuitively obvious that if the pipe was say 10cm diameter then the far end would not see any significant pressure change, given than the static vent is a hole about 3mm diameter (and there are two of these holes), because the time taken to stabilise the pressure inside such a huge volume would be excessive.

I also suspect those formulae are for incompressible fluids. These transmit pressure changes more or less instantly (limited only by the speed of sound in the fluid) if the container has infinite stiffness.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
But then only the minimal change in air pressure is what is important for the indicator. What is the differential pressure of 100 feet in typical flight levels ? I guess a fraction of a bar, so the time till that differential arrives at the instrument via 3 mm hole – tube – to membrane depends on the volume of the whole system of tubes and cavity in the instrument. As I guess the differential of pressure within 100 feet altitude variation is only very small I do not think that a lot of air has to be moved through the 3 mm hole and that will be quick enough to balance pressure in and outside so not being a factor for autopilots. — just thinking . . . . Vic
vic
EDME

Doesn’t the VSI work on the delay in pressure equalising through a very small hole?

Last Edited by Maoraigh at 13 Dec 19:26
Maoraigh
EGPE, United Kingdom

Maoraigh wrote:

Doesn’t the VSI work on the delay in pressure equalising through a very small hole?

Yes, but the air volume involved is (by design) much greater.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

Xtophe wrote:

we use mainly PVC tubing. 5mm inner diameter.

vic wrote:

I´d just get clear PVC hoses, 4 mm i.d. or

I would be cautious using PVC hoses, due to the deformation in hot temperatures / hot summers.
I know that french manufactured aircraft tend to use clear PVC. I have a friend who had just this issue with a DynAero MCR01, where in a not so hot Swedish summer suddenly he lost the speed on ASI.
Luckily he had quite a few hours on the aircraft, didn’t get panicked and used the wind-corrected GPS GS to perform the landing.
After, when he inspecting the hose circuit, he found one of those clear PVC hoses enlarged by temperature and disconnected and no securing clips.
Should I mention the aircraft was purchased by himself from the manufacturer and never mixed with those hoses.
Here for home builds, we use only thick rubber hoses, for reducing the obstruction and deformation risks.
After this, he changed all dynamic and static hoses to rubber hoses 4mm ID and 6mm OD.
Alternatively, I would use hydraulic Teflon hoses, which are more expensive and probably will last more than the aircraft life

Topic touched earlier before regarding the lag between AI and EFIS. All aircrafts I know around the EFIS it is more sensitive than the AI, so it is in my AC too.

ES?? - Sweden
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top