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Mandatory / minimal IFR equipment for Europe

The potential problem with this is when the DME is used with a localizer and is zeroed to the runway threshold....as is commonly the case in the UK

Then that station will be listed in my Garmin, I just have to be very careful choosing the right one. Or are you saying that there are DME stations that manipulate the signal return length to get a different value to display in the aircraft? Jeppesen plates often have multiple reference points for DME distances.

Based on what I have seen with my and other DMEs, I just don't trust this technology.

I don't know how it works in Europe, but the requirement for an alternate in the US is a planning requirement.

This is emphasized in my Sporty's Instrument Training course....in fact Richard Collins states that in 50years of flying he has only actually diverted to his filed alternate ONCE....he then goes on to explain that he gets constant updates of airports along his route, and if the destination doesn't look possible he will go to something else along the route.....of course this just emphasizes the fact that the US has literally thousands of public use airports many (most?) of which will at least have a GPS approach of some kind!

YPJT, United Arab Emirates

Or are you saying that there are DME stations that manipulate the signal return length to get a different value to display in the aircraft?

Yes....at Aberdeen for example there is only one DME transmitter used for both 16 and 34....depending on which is active the DME is set to read zero at the threshold of the active... Of course is will only apply to a localizer paired DME, meaning as long as you know the offset it doesn't matter too much while on or close to the final approach course

YPJT, United Arab Emirates

Yes....at Aberdeen for example there is only one DME transmitter used for both 16 and 34....depending on which is active the DME is set to read zero at the threshold of the active... Of course is will only apply to a localizer paired DME, meaning as long as you know the offset it doesn't matter too much while on or close to the final approach course

I think in that case, the Jeppesen plate shows the true distance in addition to the "fake" one. But I agree, one has to be very careful to get the right distance measurement.

This remembers me of my trip to Toussus le Noble where I performed a VOR-DME approach and had the wrong VOR turned in because the Eurocontrol plate was rather ambiguous about which VOR to use (several close by).

This remembers me of my trip to Toussus le Noble where I performed a VOR-DME approach and had the wrong VOR turned in because the Eurocontrol plate was rather ambiguous about which VOR to use (several close by).

Now that is a good example of when GPS (and moving map) saved you I bet!

YPJT, United Arab Emirates

Awqward 11-Mar-13 17:46 #13 Or are you saying that there are DME stations that manipulate the signal return length to get a different value to display in the aircraft?

Yes....at Aberdeen for example there is only one DME transmitter used for both 16 and 34....depending on which is active the DME is set to read zero at the threshold of the active... Of course is will only apply to a localizer paired DME, meaning as long as you know the offset it doesn't matter too much while on or close to the final approach course

I suspect that there are two DME transponders on the same frequency, but only one is on and selected with its appropriate localizer.

KUZA, United States

I suspect that there are two DME transponders on the same frequency, but only one is on and selected with its appropriate localizer

You are correct...however neither is colocated with the runway thresholds....EGPD airport plan

But back on topic, at EGPD for example, there are ILS, VOR, LOC and NDB approaches but the ONLY IAP available without DME is the NDB....So if no ADF and no DME there are no IAPs available....I'm sure you could live without an ADF but it seems a DME would be absolutely essential in the UK

YPJT, United Arab Emirates

Hi there,

Given the price and historical nature of equipment that is both interesting and a little quirky (ADF, DME, any others?), how long will it be before their carriage is no longer required?

Is anyone aware of other changes that will effect the IFR scene in the coming years? I really didn't fancy doing a conversion with most of my time focused on NDB stuff which I was never going to use.

DMEarc

Nothing is certain.

ADF for en-route is on its way out, and unenforced anyway. UK is consulting on withdrawal at the moment.

ADF for approaches will remain required if you want to fly these approaches, but in real life you fly them on a "proper" GPS (if approach approved/with RAIM, this is much more precise and safer). Again if you don't carry it, you would need extraordinary bad luck to be caught.

For both of the above, the safe approach would be to keep an ADF in the aircraft, and if it happens to just fail after landing before they inspect you that would be bad luck, but legal. ;-)

DME is a bit different, as it is part of many (most?) ILS approaches. While others quite happily use their GPS to substitute for it (or just ignore it and follow the ILS, forgetting what they learned about false glide slopes...), I did not like that in practice due to differences between what the FMS indicated distance and what is on the approach plates.

So if it were my money, I would pay for a DME (even when importing an aircraft that has no DME fitted), but ADF, well...

The things coming our way are

  • Mandatory 8.33; probably both radios

  • P-RNAV [tricky to do because it requires an EHSI / auto slew unless EASA change their mind]

Both of which do not really affect training since it is unlikely to involve P-RNAV airspace.

Biggin Hill

P-RNAV [tricky to do because it requires an EHSI / auto slew unless EASA change their mind]

An auto slewed HSI is not necessary. TGL10 states:

An acceptable alternative is a navigation map display, readily visible to the flight crew, with appropriate map scales and giving equivalent functionality to the lateral deviation display, except that scaling may be set manually by the pilot.

So pretty much any modern GPS qualifies. I even have an email from FOCA that they don't like it, but accept it.

LSZK, Switzerland
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